Perseverance of the Saints

romanbear · Apr 27, 2003

Hi everyone;

The fact still remains that Calvin had no security in his faith. In the "perseverance of the saints", (pedal of the tulip), he wasn't very confident. Face it he wavered in his own theology.

This is not to say that we don't all waver at times because we do. No one is perfect. But none of us is presenting a new doctrine. When I listen to a man put his views on the table in hopes that I will agree, I first checkout what scripture says if the scripture that this person lays out has to be explained by some special explanation such as this word doesn't mean what the dictionary clearly says it does.Then I have to look at the person of which the doctrine comes from. I look at his character.

The character of someone is most important when it comes to weather you want to believe what the person has to say. The character of a man will tell you all you need to know about his belief. The reason is we all justify what our actions are by what we believe.

Paul didn't want to build his ministery on another mans so he built his own. I'm not saying that Paul ministery was wrong it wasn't but is often misunderstood because he did strive to not tear down what had already been built by others.

Calvin's ministery was built on Augustines and Augustines was corrupt. All men have faults no one has a perfect doctrine. I only seek to share the light I have. If my light needs special explanation about the meaning of a word or words shame on me.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Romanbear

KenH · Apr 27, 2003

Well said, Brother Glen.

KenH · Apr 27, 2003

Originally posted by romanbear:
1) In the "perseverance of the saints", (pedal of the tulip), he wasn't very confident. Face it he wavered in his own theology.

2)Calvin's ministery was built on Augustines and Augustines was corrupt.

1)Please provide proof for your allegation.

2)Actually, Augustine got his theology from the apostle Paul and the Bible. And Paul got his theology from Jesus Christ. And all of the Bible was authored by the Holy Spirit.

romanbear · Apr 27, 2003

Ken;
What allegations are you referring to? that I should have to prove again. Maybe you didn't read the first post go back and read it. I provided proof for every thing I said look it up and see if I'm wrong before you accuse me of not having any proof again, think about how you appear to others when you attack everything I say without merrit.

By the way did you change your name?

Romanbear

romanbear · Apr 27, 2003

Hi Russel 55;
You see the reasoning of the meaning of what someone else clearly said is what is wrong. When Calvinist say that whosoever and world doesn't apply to everyone on earth. Salvation is available to the whole world not just some special part.

You still haven't been able to admit your mentor wavered in his belief. The twisting of Calvins own admission is just as bad as the twisting of the scriptures to make God's word appear to agree with Calvinistic Doctrine.
Romanbear

KenH · Apr 27, 2003

Do you mean this?

"In Calvin's will drawn up just before his death He says "I humbly seek from God to be washed and purified by the redeemers blood, shed for the sins of the human race.Zeller op cit."

There's no doubting of salvation in this statement. Don't you constantly ask for God's forgiveness, seeking to be washed in the blood of Jesus? I do so without doubting my salvation. I am simply admitting to my God that I am totally dependent upon Him for my salvation.

Also, I have been using the handle "Ken the Spurgeonite" for several weeks now.

May God have mercy on us all.

KenH · Apr 27, 2003

Originally posted by romanbear:
think about how you appear to others when you attack everything I say

And how do you think you appear to others with your hateful speech toward John Calvin and other fellow Christians who are Calvinists?

May God have mercy on us all.

tyndale1946 · Apr 27, 2003

I agree!... We all need a daily cleansing from our sins... We are cleansed daily because we are saved... Not to get saved!... Some on this board need a good scrubbing

... Me included

... Brother Glen

&

Sister Charlotte

Lighten up you all

russell55 · Apr 27, 2003

You still haven't been able to admit your mentor wavered in his belief. The twisting of Calvins own admission is just as bad as the twisting of the scriptures to make God's word appear to agree with Calvinistic Doctrine.

Huh? I have no idea what you are saying and how it relates to my post.

Where did I twist Calvin's words? I quoted (accurately) something he wrote explaining in what sense it can be said that the sins of the world have been expiated. Every time Calvin makes similar statements, isn't it reasonable to conclude that he may be using the words in this same sense?

You can't just take sentences here and there that someone wrote and say you have an accurate representation of their view on a subject, you know. You can make anyone say just about anything using that method.

russell55 · Apr 27, 2003

Salvation is available to the whole world not just some special part.

Why do you think Calvinists would disagree with this statement?

tyndale1946 · Apr 27, 2003

So is the Salvation of Gods children... The ones that belong to Kosmos... Or the ones given by the Father to the Logos?... And what about the world?... God cursed it and every living thing in it!... Comments????... Brother Glen

&

Sister Charlotte

romanbear · Apr 27, 2003

Russel;
Didn't you mean to discredit what I quoted of Calvin. I took it that way. You see you need to address the topic not start another on this thread.
Romanbear

BobRyan · Apr 27, 2003

God so LOVED the FEW of Matt 7 arbitrarily selelcted for eternal life - that He GAVE His only son.

Ooops. I mean "God so loved the WORLD that He GAVE His Son".

To DRAW ALL mankind unto Himself John 12:32.

To BE the Savior of the WORLD 1John 4:10

For He is "NOT WILLING THAT ANY of the FEW arbitrarily selected according to MAtt 7 should perish"... Ooops. I mean "For He is not willing for ANY to Perish but that ALL should come to Repentance" 2Peter 3.

IF NOT - we could always evangelize this way

"God only cares to save the FEW of Matt 7 - that means few if any in this group are even cared about much less your friends, children, loved ones etc. HOWEVER on the off chance that someone here tonight MIGHT be someone that God loves AND that He cares to save TONIGHT, let us observe a moment of silence and SEE what God sovereignly does in this place.

Then - we can give Him ALL the praise and glory since the entire act will have been HIS ALONE without being tainted by our imperfect "appeals" or your "seeming choice".

---

As I said we "COULD" give that appeal - if it were true.

In Christ,

Bob

Frogman · Apr 27, 2003

God cursed it and every living thing in it!...

Comments????...

Don't say this outloud

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas Eaton

russell55 · Apr 27, 2003

Didn't you mean to discredit what I quoted of Calvin.

My point was simply this: If Calvin himself has made a statement in which he delineates the sense in which it can be said that the sins of the world are expiated, why don't we take the other universal seeming statements by Calvin on the subject of the atonement in that same sense?

When Calvin says that Christ bore the guilt of the world, why do we not consider that he may have meant by that statement that "this benefit common to the whole Church" and that "under the word all or whole, he does not include the reprobate, but designates those who should believe as well as those who were then scattered through various parts of the world"? Why don't we consider that he may be making it "evident, as it is meet, the grace of Christ, when it is declared to be the only true salvation of the world". Why don't we consider that he is using the words in the same sense that he lays out so clearly in his comments on 1 John 2:2?

[ April 27, 2003, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

romanbear · Apr 28, 2003

Hi Russell 55;
This verse says it all for me especially the Degenerate mind.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Most people in this country know who Jesus is, or what is said that He is. I also believe that all sinners can come to Christ.The Holy spirit draws everyone Degenerate or not. There is no such thing as a gentile who is elected

Romanbear

Eric B · Apr 29, 2003

Whether or not we are of the election is not a problem to us simply because our 'coming' to Christ is evidence of our election. You know this from previous posts as to what we believe, in this way Calvinism is less restrictive than any other system.

Bro. Dallas

Do you mean this?

"In Calvin's will drawn up just before his death He says "I humbly seek from God to be washed and purified by the redeemers blood, shed for the sins of the human race.Zeller op cit."

There's no doubting of salvation in this statement. Don't you constantly ask for God's forgiveness, seeking to be washed in the blood of Jesus? I do so without doubting my salvation. I am simply admitting to my God that I am totally dependent upon Him for my salvation.

Ken the Spurgeonite

Actually, Calvin did teach that God gives people a flase faith, so that they really believe they were saved, but don't persevere.

I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the reprobate, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election; and yet the difficulty is easily solved: for though none are enlightened into faith...experience shows that the reprobates are sometimes affected in a way similar to the elect, that even in their judgement there is no difference between them....Not that they truly perceive the power of of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them and leave them without excuse, instill into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption.
Meanwhile, believers are taught to examine themselves carefully and humbly, lest carnal security creep in and take the place of assurance of faith. We may add, that the reprobate never have any other than a confused sense of grace, laying hold of the shadow rather than the substance, because the Spirit properly seals the forgiveness of sins in the elect only, applying it by special faith to their use. Still, it is correctly said that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment...Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but...the reprobate never obtain to the full extent or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy. [?!] In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.

I therefore deny that they either understand his will considered as immutable, or steadily embrace his truth, inasmuch as they rest satisfied with an evanescent impression; just as a tree not planted deep enough may take root, but will in process of time wither away, though it may for several years not only put forth leaves and flowers, but produce fruit. In short, as by the revolt of the first man, the image of God could be effaced from his mind and soul, so there is nothing strange in His shedding some rays of grace on the reprobate, and afterwards allowing these to be extinguished. There is nothing to prevent him from giving some a slight knowledge of his Gospel and imbuing others thoroughly. Meanwhile, we must remember that however feeble and slender the faith of the elect may be, yet as the Spirit of God is to them a sure earnest and seal of their adoption, the impression once engraven can never be effaced from their hearts, whereas the light which glimmers in the reprobate is afterwards quenched. Nor can it be said that the Spirit therefore deceives, because he does not quicken the seed which lies in their hearts so as to make it ever remain incorruptible as in the elect. I go farther: seeing it is evident, from the doctrine of Scripture and from daily experience, that the reprobate are occasionally impressed with a sense of divine grace, some desire of mutual love must necessarily be excited in their hearts. But as the reprobate have no rooted conviction of the paternal love of God, so they do not in return yield the love of sons, but are led by a kind of mercenary affection. The Spirit of love was given to Christ alone, for the express purpose of conferring this Spirit upon his members; and there can be no doubt that the following words of Paul apply to the elect only: "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us," (Rom. 5: 5 namely, the love which begets that confidence in prayer to which I have above adverted. It hence appears that the faith of some, though not true faith, is not mere pretence. They are borne along by some sudden impulse of zeal, and erroneously impose upon themselves, sloth undoubtedly preventing them from examining their hearts with due care. Such probably was the case of those whom John describes as believing on Christ; but of whom he says, "Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man," (John 2: 24, 25.) Were it not true that many fall away from the common faith, (I call it common, because there is a great resemblance between temporary and living, everduring faith,) Christ would not have said to his disciples, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free," (John 8: 31, 32.) He is addressing those who had embraced his doctrine, and urging them to progress in the faith, lest by their sluggishness they extinguish the light which they have received. Accordingly, Paul claims faith as the peculiar privilege of the elect, intimating that many, from not being properly rooted, fall away, (Tit. 1: 1.) In the same way, in Matthew, our Savior says, "Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up," (Matth. 16: 13.) (Calvin, Institutes of the Christian ReligionIII:ii, 11-12, Translation by Henry Beveridge)

With this in mind, it would be highly presumptuous to say "I am doing well enough to know I am truly elect", so naturally, there would be some wavering in total assurance. This perhaps was what was reflected even in Calvin's writings.
Ultimately, no one can really know, until they've lived their whole lives, "persevered" and died. Then, it's too late! We all have periods where our faith is shaken, if we are honest with ourselves. This can start a downward spiral, because just the very doubt seems to confirm that you are not the plant that is properly rooted. And since election is unconditional, there is nothing you can do. You can try to "persevere", but if it is not from God, it means nothing; just an attempt to save yourself by your own effort. You can pray and plead, but then that is just "mercenary affection" (Trying to get something from God— a pardon from Hell, rather than coming to Him out of love for Him). Anyone who has ever received Christ after being warned of Hell or told the benefits of Heaven can fit into this category. Who then can be saved, really? This is what I was just telling Larry on another thread, about accusing others of only making salvation "possible", when it is at best "possible" or "potential" under this scenario.

If there is a Perserverance of the Saints how did they perservere... If you tell me by their works they perservered... The Primitive Baptist of which I am don't buy it... Christ is the only reason the saints of God perservere!

Still, the way it comes out actually fosters legalism, because as you can see in the quote, you have to be more diligent to "make your election sure", not become "sluggish", etc.

KenH · Apr 29, 2003

Ron Block who is a member of Alison Krauss' band, Union Station, released a gospel bluegrass album a while back and this is from the notes included with the CD giving his reason for writing the song and then the words.

"He's Holding On To Me"
by Ron Block
CD: Faraway Land

(It took me a long time to realize God isn't going to let me go; fear-based
religion can't take us very far down the road, because "he who fears is not
made perfect in love." Although "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of
wisdom," it isn't the end. Sooner or late we begin to find that "perfect
love casts out fear.")

There's a path along life's highway so common and well trod
By the shoes of burdened Christians who won't put their trust in God
They've' been born of the Spirit, but they live by what they see
So they trust in their own effort, never living in belief.

I'm not holding on to Jesus, He's holding on to me
He died and rose again to set me free
I am resting in the Spirit, not afraid of what will be
I'm not holding on to Jesus, He's holding on to me.

If you're living in the dungeon in the heavy chains of fear
Don't live another minute in the lies you're holding dear
The chains have all been shattered, the light is streaming in
You can't close your eyes forever to the One who lives within.

I'm not holding on to Jesus, He's holding on to me
He died and rose again to set me free
I am resting in the Spirit, not afraid of what will be
I'm not holding on to Jesus, He's holding on to me.

romanbear · Apr 29, 2003

Eric B;
A quote from you;
----------------------------------------------
Actually, Calvin did teach that God gives people a flase faith, so that they really believe they were saved, but don't persevere.
---------------------------------------------
My reply;
After reading this I figured that this must be a type-o. My Heavenly Father has never decieved anyone. It's just not possible. Satan is the Father of lies. Who do you follow, deciet ,or Truth and justice.
Romanbear

KenH · Apr 29, 2003

Perhaps this will help, romanbear -

2 Thessalonians 2:11-13(NASB)
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Perseverance of the Saints

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