CALVINISM'S TEACHING OF TOTAL INABILITY IS UNFOUNDED IN SCRIPTURE

Heb. 3:7That is why the Holy Spirit says,
      "Today you must listen to his voice.
      8Don't harden your hearts against him
            as Israel did when they rebelled,
            when they tested God's patience in the wilderness.
      9There your ancestors tried my patience,
            even though they saw my miracles for forty years.
      10So I was angry with them, and I said,
      `Their hearts always turn away from me.
            They refuse to do what I tell them.'
      11So in my anger I made a vow:
            `They will never enter my place of rest.'"
12Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God.13You must warn each other every day, as long as it is called "today," so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God.14For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.15But never forget the warning:
      "Today you must listen to his voice.
            Don't harden your hearts against him
            as Israel did when they rebelled."
    16And who were those people who rebelled against God, even though they heard his voice? Weren't they the ones Moses led out of Egypt?17And who made God angry for forty years? Wasn't it the people who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?18And to whom was God speaking when he vowed that they would never enter his place of rest? He was speaking to those who disobeyed him.19So we see that they were not allowed to enter his rest because of their unbelief.

1God's promise of entering his place of rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to get there.2For this Good News [gospel]--that God has prepared a place of rest--has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn't believe what God told them.[some translation say, "those who heard did not combine it with faith."]3For only we who believe can enter his place of rest. As for those who didn't believe, God said,
      "In my anger I made a vow:
            `They will never enter my place of rest,'"
even though his place of rest has been ready since he made the world.4We know it is ready because the Scriptures mention the seventh day, saying, "On the seventh day God rested from all his work."5But in the other passage God said, "They will never enter my place of rest."6So God's rest is there for people to enter. But those who formerly heard the Good News failed to enter because they disobeyed God.7So God set another time for entering his place of rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David a long time later in the words already quoted:
      "Today you must listen to his voice.
            Don't harden your hearts against him."
8This new place of rest was not the land of Canaan, where Joshua led them. If it had been, God would not have spoken later about another day of rest.9So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God.10For all who enter into God's rest will find rest from their labors, just as God rested after creating the world.11Let us do our best to enter that place of rest. For anyone who disobeys God, as the people of Israel did, will fall.12For the word of God is full of living power. It is sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are.13Nothing in all creation can hide from him. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes. This is the God to whom we must explain all that we have done.

Hardening only takes place AFTER one has heard the good news and rejects it. Hardening is not a result of the fall as you assert.

If we reject the good news we will also be cut off, or hardened to the things of God.

Romans 11:7-24

7But some of these branches from Abraham's tree, some of the Jews, have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, were grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in God's rich nourishment of his special olive tree.18But you must be careful not to brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. Remember, you are just a branch, not the root.19"Well," you may say, "those branches were broken off to make room for me."20Yes, but remember--those branches, the Jews, were broken off because they didn't believe God, and you are there because you do believe. Don't think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen.21For if God did not spare the branches he put there in the first place, he won't spare you either.22Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe to those who disobeyed, but kind to you as you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.23And if the Jews turn from their unbelief, God will graft them back into the tree again. He has the power to do it.24For if God was willing to take you who were, by nature, branches from a wild olive tree and graft you into his own good tree--a very unusual thing to do--he will be far more eager to graft the Jews back into the tree where they belong.

Questions:
1. If "hardening" is a result of unbelief (as taught in Heb); why would God "harden" the Gentiles if they hadn't even heard the "gospel" yet?
2. Why would God "harden" the Israelites if they were born "total unable" (which seems to mean the same thing as hardening) as a result of the Fall? They are hardened for unbelief, but they don't believe because they are hardened? This is nonsense.
3. Why would the writer of Heb. warn believers to be careful not to be "hardened" by doing what Israel did, if indeed everyone is "hardened" from the Fall?

You all are not being consistant with your terminology. If you don't believe "total Inability" as taught by Calvinism is equivelant to "hardening" can you please provide us a definition of these two terms so I can understand where you stand on these issues?

Thanks,
Bill

 

Yes, I know who these passages are written to. Don't you think Israel believed in God too? They saw his miraclous signs, carried his words, produced his prophets, and ulimately were the linage of the Christ, yet most of them, while believing in Him, rebelled against him continually. If we, as believers, do that these passages are very clear as to our demise. One could argue that the people he is refering to are those who "think they are believers" but they really aren't. That's fine, but it still represents my point that they haven't yet been hardened as you suggest. You haven't dealt with these passages at all, you've only said they don't apply to believers. That's really not the point, the point is: NOT EVERYONE IS HARDENED.

People are not hardened until they have continually rejected God's ways. The Gentiles had not done that because they hadn't "heard" of God's ways and the Remnant were spared by God's grace so as to accomplish his purpose in redemption.

I never said that.
I said that hardening is a result of people's rejection of God's ways. If you mean by "pursuit" --"a sovereign decree of God," I agree. If God determines to cause something to happen by his sovereign will, it will happen. But you assume that God "sovereignly decrees" each man's salvation instead of allowing them to respond to His provisions.

This is where I take issue. Why would God grow angry with the Israelites for their unbelief if they don't have the ability to beleive? Why would He "make them unable to believe" [harden them] because they wouldn't believe? It just doesn't make any sense.

He hardens them because their belief is not mixed with faith. Faith, as we learn from James, is belief that leads to obedience. That is man's responsiblity, though God receives all the glory for it.

Your view makes God into this divine actor who acts like he is upset at people for doing the only thing they can do. He pretends like he is geniunely calling everyone to come unto him saying things like, "Come to me all of you who are weak and heavy laden and I will give you rest." But in reality His is just acting like he is calling everyone, really he has a secret "effectual calling" for his elect. It's all just for show.

The Arminian asks, "Why?"

"To show is glory!"

What? You are telling me that God decieves us into thinking he is calling all men to himself and he acts like he is mad at past generations for their rebellion when He knows full well that was the only thing they were capable of doing? Then he sends these people who have no ability to respond to his call into an eternal fire to be tortured without end? Yeah, that view of God really highlights his Glory.....NOT!

 

Angel,
Most of what you wrote concerning the atonement I agree with, but you still haven't dealt with the two passages that speak of the timelessness of Christ's work. What do they mean to you?

The reason I don't believe this should be the crux of the debate is because there is no way for us to know when the atonement is applied to those who believe.

You could argue that it is applied to the elect, while I argue it is applied to all who believe, which in essense is the same thing to you, for all who believe are the elect in the Calvinistic system, Right? So, the issue is not the application of the atonement, but who determines who receives this application.

Is it determined by God for each individual? Or has God made it available to all who choose to accept it?

That question is answered by the issue of "Total Inability," which is why I spend the majority of my efforts on this issue. I hope that makes sense.

We are to consider ourselves dead to sin just as we should consider ourselves to have been "spiritually dead" before we were saved, neither of which necessitate "total inability" to that which we are "dead" to. It's an analogy that discribes our condition, it never links "death" to inability.

Earlier in Rom. 6:2 he says "we who died to sin." He does not say "consider yourself" in this passage. He actually says we died to sin, but that does not mean that there is total inability for Christians to sin. You are taking an analogy further than the scripture takes it. Death is never linked to the "total inability" of man to respond to the call of God.

If so, the word "dead" might be used when speaking of the "hardening" of Israel. Now there is a group of people who can't believe! (John 12:37-41)

After hearing from Nepty these last several weeks I don't think you could ever sound offensive to me Angel. You are a breath of fresh air in comparison!

I have considered all of these texts hermeneutically, which is exactly why I disagree with your conclusions. Being "dead to" something never implies a "total inability" to respond to God's call, especially when you believe as I do that His general call of the gospel can pearce a wayward heart.

The Spirit's call is necessary for one to respond, but Calvinists insist that the Holy Spirit must indwell a person before they can truly believe. This clearly contradicts the scripture in numerous places!

With Respect,
Bill

 

No it doesn't say the word "consider" in Ephesians, but it also doesn't say the word "consider" in Rom. 6:2, but the point is Paul could be meaning to use the word dead as merely an analogy as he does in Romans. There is know way for us to know what Paul's intent was when he used the word "dead." We certainly can't be sure in light of Rom. 6:2 because it most definitately doesn't mean "total inability" in these passage.

I'm not "glossing over" these texts, I see what you are saying but it doesn't really address the point. My point is that you have to speculate as to the author's intent when using the word dead, because he never links the word dead to total inability. In fact, we see in Rom. 6:2 that the word dead is used in a way that doesn't mean "total inability." Regardless, of Romans 6, however, even if Eph. 2 stood alone, there is no linking of total inablity to Paul's analogy of being dead, thus its mere speculation on your part. That is not a very solid foundation for a theological stance. What else do you got that supports "total inability"?

Wow, its been so long sense I heard a Calvinist use this type of language it really shocks my system. Can you rub off on Npetreley just a little bit? Your willingness to admit that you too can make errors, just as we all can, is a true sign of teachablity and sincerity. I like that! I am much more likely to learn something from you since you have approached this debate in a humble demeanor. Thanks you for that. And I'll keep looking for a link between the word "dead" and "total inablity," I just don't see it hear yet.

God Bless.
Bill

 

Ok, I understand.

Now can you please interpret these "molehills" for me:

You have claimed that everyone is "hardened" or "Total Unable" from birth due to the Fall of Man.

Do you believe that hardening and "Total Inability" are two completely different things, or one in the same?

If they are different, how are they different and why does Israel receive this "hardening" if in affect they were already made "totally unable" by the Fall of Man?

If they are the same, then why aren't the Remnant hardened due to the Fall and why is hardening spoken of as being "temporary?" And why aren't the Gentiles ever spoken of as being "hardened?"

I'm trying to understand how you see the many, many teachings of Israels being Hardened for the purpose of ingrafting the Gentiles as being a "molehill." It seems to me to be the "mystery" and the crux of the entire NT following Christ's Ascention. This should be the mountain that is used to interpret the rest of the scriptures, especially those that speak of man's "total inability."

Please explain your view. Thanks brother.