Sovereignty vs. Chance?

Brother, I appreciate your remarks. I am glad we both agree that God is not the cause of sin, and I do agree that God sometimes uses the sins of men and devils to accomplish His desired purposes. A great example of this is the one you mentioned of Joseph and his brethren. God overcame the evil of Joseph's brethren with good. David wrote, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain." (Psa. 76:10) However, I still think your interpretation of Jeremiah 7:30, 31 falls short. Here is another declaration like the one written in Jeremiah:

"Hear, O my people, and I will testify unto thee: O Israel, if thou wilt hearken unto me; There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god. I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels. Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways! I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries. The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever. He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee." -Psa. 81:8-16

Certainly God permitted Israel to do this. However, I believe the children of God have the ABILITY to keep the commandments of God. The ability to do His commandments comes not from within ourselves, but the grace of God, and it is our duty, as children of God, to keep them and not charge God with not giving us grace to do so. God asked the children of Israel, "What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?" (Isa. 5:4) God granted them all the means of fruitfulness (v. 2), but they still disobeyed Him! God deals with us as sons, not robots. By the way, what order are you a member of?

In Hope of Eternal Life...

 

I believe we have this ability too. Yet, God purposely has ordained evil so that His holiness has been glorified. It's difficult for me to put into words, and to be frank (as opposed to frankford jk) with you, until I gather my thoughts better, I think what I write is confusing. When I get a better grasp at typing out what I'm thinking I will do so more clearly. Sheesh, even that explanation was poor. I totally think that God treats us as Sons, because that's very biblical. Robotics and the such is not. There's no disagreement here. I really think it's all a matter of definition. What do you mean by 'order'? Denomination?

 

Yes, to what "denomination" do you belong? I understand that it can be difficult at times to express your thoughts on this board, and when you do, they do not always come across exactly the way you meant them. At least we both agree that God is not the cause of sin. I also agree with you that God overrules sin and makes it redound to His glory. However, I would not say that God "ordains" sin. God has purposed to permit sin, like you stated, to magnify His holiness, but the sin God directs to accomplish His purposes is already inerrant in our members. We inherited it through Adam. Do you have any comments on the Scriptures I posted?

In Hope of Eternal Life...

 

I guess SBC. I am a member of an SBC church, but I'm definitely closer to Reformed Baptist.

"God has purposed to permit sin..." Exactly. He's sovereign over everything. Even the sinful nature gained via Adam. He does not always permit sin, which is proof of sovereignty. He does not always stop sin, which proves His sovereignty. Either way, though, He controls the situation: whether to restrain influence so that the sin{s} be committed, or intervene, so that it is not. He uses it all for and to His Glory.

I do, but you'd think them "falling short". I mean that in all sincerity, not in a teenage smart-alecy tone or inflexion.

I would simply read this in light of the rest of Scripture. The key phrase here is, "So I gave them up unto their own hearts' " I'm sure that is insufficient for you, though. Sorry for not responding sooner. I've recently been promoted at my job and I've been delegated many jobs for one man. My 1 yrd old daughter also had an eardrum rupture (ow!). Anyway, I've been terribly busy and thank you for your patience.

 

Why did God give them up unto their own hearts' lust, to walk in their own counsels?

 

I thought you had gone on vacation. How've ya been?

Well obvisously because they didn't "hearken" to God's commands. And you'll say, "So it was their decision". To which I'll answer, "Yes, because God ordained it so." "Why?" "For His good pleasure, whatever that may be." As noted earlier, I try interpret this with the rest of Scripture. God hardens men hearts, and they also harden their own hearts. It's too much for my finite mind to understand how. The Bible teaches it, however, and so I believe it. BTW, missed having the dialogue. Glad you're back.

 

There’s absolutely no CHANCE that God isn’t SOVEREIGN…

 

There’s absolutely no CHANCE that God isn’t SOVEREIGN… </font>[/QUOTE]Ha ha. Good.

 

I understand what you are saying, but I do not feel comfortable dismissing the apparent contradiction as "mystery." What becomes of Isaiah 5:4 where it is clear that God granted Israel sufficient light, but they were still disobedient? If God predestinated all things, then Scriptures such as Isaiah 5:4, along with many others, mean absolutely nothing. After the children of Israel came out of the Land of Egypt, God said, "Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:" (Psa. 95:10) Did God predestinate the children of Israel to disobedience only to grieve Himself?

 

I would not feel comfortable dismissing any part of scripture. I will just believe Scripture for Scripture. All of it. I don't see it as a contradiction. A paradox, maybe. God is all wise and all-just. I'm sorry if this seems like a scapegoat excuse.

 

This is typical of the confusion many people have about the "choice" issue

It is as ridiculous as the question "can God make a rock he cannot move?"

God is limited by only one thing, his very nature. God cannot sin, he is incapable of it, he cannot not be sovereign, or he would not be acting in a way consistent with his nature. God did not at some point choose to take on these attirbutes, they are who and what he is.

God is ultimately that cause of all events, it is the very essense of God that he is the creator, the only being in the creatorly realm, and that all events must be caused by him in a way that does not compromise his holiness. Just as not causing an event would compromise his sovereignty

Paul refers to this as a mystery, indeed it is, we cannot using finite human logic make the entire picture operate on a human level. Just as we cannot fathom a God of mercy and justice being the same being either.

 

Since, as you claim, God is the cause of all things, and you will not answer any of the Scriptures I have posted thus far, I will give you an easy one.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." -James 1:13-15

In Hope of Eternal Life...

 

There is a logical disconnect here. You can take all the scripture you want and interpret it outside of the context of the Bible as a whole, and ignore the attributes of God, his very essence if you like, and come up with a situation where God loses control over his creation at least some of the time, but when viewed as he should be, God clearly is the cause of all events, although there are aspects of his will that allow for the free will of man.

I cannot go through this whole thread and address scriptures you throw up there, but I will say that interpreted as a whole, not individually, the scritptures regarding salvation especially, everything else notwithstanding, clearly lead one to believe that Salvation is a work of God, leading men to himself via the Spirit. It is not some great deed that a man must do, to choose God, after all, scripture clearly teaches that no man seeketh after God. How bout the basics. "For by grace ye are saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8,9

The verses regarding salvation are overwhelming. As to the rest of man's activity, there is certainly a paradox that surrounds our understanding of God's attributes, and the clear teachings on Free will, that I will accept. I also don't believe that it is a theological problem, but has more to do with our finite perception of who God really is.

 

More directly on point. Did God allow sin, did he just know ahead of time that is what man would choose? Did he introduce sin and than allow it to run its own course? Or did he never want sin introduced into his creation, but couldn't stop it because he was unable to control his own creation.

This is an important distinction because we are dealing with the very person of God, who he really is. When you start questioning his ability to control events on earth, or you consider man's choices to be outside of what God "really" wants, than you call into question his very nature. God cannot choose to give up his soverignty, any more than I can give up my status as a member of the human race, it is who and what I am. God is not some divine watchmaker who set things in motion, and having turned the spring has now taken his hands off and lets the clock run on its own. That idea leads to some dangerous doctrine.

God does not tempt us in the same way that our flesh is tempted by Satan, but if he allows Satan to tempt us, as in the book of Job to fulfill his greater purpose of glorifying himself, is he not then in control and does he not have a causal role in the events here on earth? Clearly in Job, God is complicit in the temptation of Job, not for malicious or evil reasons, but to prove his own worth, to demonstrate Job's love for God. God's actions are always to make himself famous, and the whole of creation is used by God to demonstrate his greatness.

One could say the same thing about the fall. In effect, the Fall was the way that God allowed humans to be in an unworthy position, so that he could demonstrate his great mercy and grace. If we did not need that attribute of God manifested to us, we may never have recognized it as one of his attributes.

Clearly God caused the fall or he would cease to be sovereign, in such a way that did not impugn his holiness, or he would cease to be holy, and either attribute being damaged by the fall would in essence cause him to cease to be God. Does that make sense to me, no. But I can see no other solution to the truths of Scripture.