What About The Sabbath?! Many Baptists Do not Keep the Sabbath ..Why???l

"As Gentiles, we are under grace and thus aren't supposed to keep the Sabbath." Did someone forget God tells us in Isaiah 56:6-7 that He will bless the Gentiles ("foreigners") who “keep” the Sabbath? If God didn't want Gentiles to observe the Sabbath, why would He bless them for doing so?
Isaiah 56:6-7
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

I realize that for Dispensationalists like myself that this was before the Church age.( The age of Grace) Yet it indicates that God doesn't draw as many distinctions between Jews and gentiles as we do. Didn't Paul say Who is a jew? he who is one in his heart? I don't believe the Sabbath was just for the Jew. Not then and not now. What do you think? chet

 

Gidday Pator Chet, I had never seen that in Isaiah before. Looks like an intersting study of the passgae comming up

 

Dear Pastor Chet,

You and I just discussed Isaiah 66 from the basis of a millenial view.

Acts Chapter 15 gives the Holy Spirit/apostolic view of the Law of Moses during the "Church" age.

In Acts 15, the Spirit of God and the Apostles superceded the Law of Moses and gave only a few "necessary" items. Sabbath keeping was not one of them.

Previous to that Jesus revealed to and through Peter with the vision of the sheet descending fron heaven with clean and unclean animals that the dietary regulations had been set aside. This caused such a commotion that a dispute broke out and was resolved by the Spirit of God and the Apostles in Acts 15.

The mission of the Church in the preaching of the Gospel has a "dispensation" from the Law of Moses as the Book of Acts clearly teaches.

Acts 15
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

There is no "Sabbath keeping" in the list.
The "how to" of sabbath keeping is detailed only in the Law of Moses.

In my view, Isaiah 66 points to the millenium.
The mission of the Church will have been completed.
Christ will sit on the earthly throne of David.
Israel will be the head of the nations and at that time the Lord of the Sabbath (He Himself is our Rest) will do what He pleases concerning Sabbath.

In the mean time, those who wish to "keep" the Sabbath, then do so. However, it cannot be kept correctly by males in every jot and tittle according to the Torah except for those who are first circumcised in their flesh (for one thing).

Remember the admonition of Acts 15:
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

If one wishes to "remember" or "memorialize" the Sabbath by assembling together on the seventh day then fine. It is not "necessary" (according to the Holy Spirit) in this age.

Whether this concession is because of spiritual weakness or "hardness of heart" of the gentiles is not given so it is unimportant for the here and now. The Gospel must be unimpaired by Hebrew ritual and/or "keeping" apart from Baptism and the Lord's Supper.

Since it is not a "necessary" item, I personally choose by faith to assemble with those who do so on the first day "resurrection day" of the week.

HankD

 

Hank, the Book of Isaiah is a book of Prophecy in parts. Jesus Christ Himself even read from a scroll of it and told those who were listening that today this is fufilled in your hearing.

Isaiah is Gods Written word. If it says that the Sabbath is continung in the millenium then that is so.

I am not wanting to be in any way disrespectfull Hank, I really enjoy what you have to say, as you study things very carefully and bring up heaps of good points. Yet I am concened that in order to keep a catholic led position we can try and make scriptures fit into what we want them to say. Isaiah seems to me to be clear that the SAbbath which we have established has no connection whatsoever to the Lords Day is ongoing in the millenium.

Being into the Sabbath idea, I have met a number of people from all different walks of life who began to intensly or in the Berean sense study the doctrine of the sabbath. And studing it for what it is, not with an agenda to disprove the Seventh Day Adventist Church. All these people when the blinkers came off suddenly saw the sabbath in scripture.

Hence I would encourage all to look at the Sabbath independantly, not with an agenda to prove any point, but to look at it openly to see what the bible really does say. I like Chet kept Sunday for at least the past 12 years, yet God has shown me in scripture that He wants me to go another way. Maybe it will happen that way for others.

 

I agree.

HankD

 

Dear Ben,

Your response stuck in my craw and I need to answer it.

That is exactly what I said. He will decide not you or I.

I have no blinkers on, I have always seen it.

I am not sure what you mean by this. I am a former Roman Catholic and when I left the Church of Rome it was after 2 years of searching the Scriptures. I threw away whatever I found to be unscriptural when I left.
I did not then find 1st day (or any other day assembling) to be unscriptural and I still don't.
But, for what it is worth to you, here are the scriptural elements of my faith which have determined my choice.

Jesus Christ resurrected on the first day of the week. We call it the Lord's Day.

The apostles met on the first day to break bread…

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

The members of the local Church of Corinth were told to "lay by him in store" on the first day.

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Nowhere in the NT are Christians told to "keep" the Sabbath. The argument of silence in Acts 15 is sufficient for my faith choice of the 1st day for the common weekly assembling ... "and the just shall live by faith".

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Galatians 4:
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

I bring these passages of Scripture up because it would appear that you have made an oblique accusation that I " try and make scriptures fit into what we want them to say". Judge again. My apology to you if I am wrong concerning the accusation.

What do you mean by "catholic position"? I have heard this before. Do you mean the Church of Rome, the Roman Catholic Church? When in your opinion did the Church of Rome begin?

An early Church leader, Justin Martyr was born at Flavia Neapolis (ancient Shechem, modern Nablus) in Palestine in 100AD. He wrote ...

Do you consider Justin Martyr Roman Catholic?

Dear brother "keep" (by faith of course) whatever day you please. That is your right and I respect it.

I can honestly say that I have not tried to " make scriptures fit into what we want them to say".

HankD

[ May 22, 2003, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Gidday Hank,

The idea about making scriptures fir into what we want them to say is a Generic term. The point that i am attempting to make in this, is that it is not unusual for a Christian to have a pre concieved idea and then go looking in the bible for scriptures, or ways of interpreting scripture, and making that fit into the Pre Conception. Most often people do this without even realising that this is the case.

Over recent years when people search the scripture concerning the sabbath, it is usually to attempt to disprove the Seventh Day Adventist Church, who have a number of different ideas to mainstream christian doctrine. Often people will be against the idea of the Sabbath simply to oppose the SDA.

Isaiah says plainly to me, and I have just found this scripture also, that the Sabbath will continue in the Millenial reign of Christ. It is factual that the Jewish Sabbath was and is Saturday. So I dont think that the bible can contradict this in the New Testament, when this passage is prophetic. Yet I feel that people are all to keen to try and dismiss things like this in favour of pre concieved ideas about Sunday Worship.

Again Hank this is in no way to have a go at you. I am just expressing my feeling that scriptures are being put aside in order to support a man made doctrine.

I want to address your poins Hank. but knowing where this one might go I will start with just the one point.

You stated that Christ rose on the Sunday. Is there a clear bible refernce that states this? I have thought about this idea myself too lately. And I am having some difficulty seeing it in scripture. It probably was on Sunday as traditional teaching would suggest, yet in Berean Bible Study (Intensive Study) does the Bible really say this?

 

Dear Ben,

To answer the question concerning the actual day of the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

First, the Sabbath:
The seventh day of the week by Hebrew reckoning begins right after sundown of the 6th day (Friday).

Certain Jewish interpretations of the Torah say that when 3 stars are visible in the sky on Friday evening, Sabbath has begun.

Sabbath ends at sundown Saturday and a new week (the first day of the week) begins.

Scripture:
Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

For what it is worth, the witness of Justin Martyr (100-165AD) is that Christendom at the time saw Christ as resurrected on the first day of the week. Not only that but they gathered for assembly on that day.

It is true that though he was born in Palestine he was martyred in Rome. This was at a time when Christians were first martyred, here is a fuller context of his apologetic

Tertullian (200AD) as well in answer to Jews who were saying that Christians worship the "sun" because they worship on "sun day":

I quote these early Church leaders because sabbatarians often say that Sunday keeping is a "Catholic" pagan invention. However it is documented in history (whether the practice is right or wrong is not the point of citations) that Christians met on Sunday as a common practice long before the evolution of the Church of Rome into Roman Catholicism.

Both Scripture and the Early Church witness to Sunday as the both the day (or at very least A day) of common assembly and the day of the week that Christ resurrected from the grave.

However, and to repeat myself (and Scripture) :

Colossians 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Worship upon/gather together on what day you will.

HankD

 

i woill have to say that this is one of the best debates I have been involved with on the Baptist Board.

I am of the opinion still that the Sabbath was given in Genesis 2:3 to all people. Consecrated to all people by God.

For any one that is interested, here is a link to the Bible Sabbath Association.

http://www.biblesabbath.org/

 

Three Bible texts (1 Cor 16:1-3, Acts 20:7-12, Rev 1:10) have been largely used to refer to weekly worship on the first day of the week, which is now known as "Sunday" and also as the "Lord's Day". We find no probative indication of Sunday worship in any of these texts.

So, naturally, the question arises: what indication of Sunday worship is available through non-Biblical historical documents. While Protestant Christians ascribe to using "the Bible and the Bible only" as their rule of faith, it may well be of value to examine historical references to see if our interpretations of Scripture fit with non-Biblical sources. Also, since the Bible was completed in the first century AD, it obviously cannot be used to trace the evolution of Sunday-keeping over the many centuries between the Revelation and the present day.

While the Epistle to the Magnesians (c. 115 A.D.) makes a very ambiguous remark that it is unlikely has anything to suggest Sunday sacredness, the earliest known reference to Sunday sacredness is found in the apocryphal Epistle of Barnabas, chapter 15, dated between AD 130 and 138. This timid yet explicit reference to Sunday sacredness mentions no gatherings nor any Eucharistic celebration, but simply that the God has replaced the "present sabbaths" with "an eighth day" which is to be observed "with rejoicing." Since there is no mention of gatherings or worship, it is not clear if this passage signifies weekly Sunday worship. Notice, however, that this epistle would serve, if nothing else, to clearly demonstrate that Sabbath-observance had not changed to Sunday-observance during the time of Christ or His Apostles! Whatever motivates the theology of this apocryphal epistle, we can be assured that the motivation does not stem from any explicit command of Christ or the Apostles.

Justin Martyr, a philosopher and Christian martyr, offers us the first detailed description of Sunday worship. His works were produced in Rome between AD 138 and 161. While the bulk of Justin's writing concerning days of worship focuses on attacking the Sabbath rather than upholding Sunday, he makes the fact of Sunday worship clear: "Sunday, indeed, is the day on which we all hold our common assembly." (APOLOGY 67,3-7) So, we know that by the middle of the second century, at least a group of Christians in Rome were worshiping regularly on Sunday.

The expression "Lord's day" first appears as an undisputed Christian designation for Sunday near the end of the second century. The first undisputed occurrence is found in the apocryphal Gospel of Peter where twice the expression "the Lord's day" is used as a translation of "the first day of the week," which we find in Mark 16:2 par. The Gospel of Peter is dated in the second half of the second century, since Serapion of Antioch about AD 200 refuted its docetic teachings.

According to Eusebius, Melito of Sardis (who died c. AD 195) wrote a treatise On the Lord's day, but unfortunately only the title has survived.

These earliest extra-Scriptural references show that Sunday was not considered a holy day during the time of Christ or His Apostles. Only later, during the second century, do we begin to find scant reference to Sunday as a day of meeting and worship for Christians, and these references depict Sunday worship only among Christians in Rome. We must be extremely careful in our analysis of early-century documents, since these are easy to abuse!
in Christ
chet

 

My citations of early Church "Fathers" were intended as a rebuttal to the implied notion that the paganized Church of Rome introduced Sunday observance to Christendom. Also the citations were made as a witness of the early Church that Sunday was accepted as the first (or eighth) day of the week and/or identified with The Lord's Day.

There are many others who disputed with Judaizers against the Seventh Day Sabbath observance which I didn't cite:

The Epistle of Barnabas (130AD)

Cyprian (258AD)

Also:
Justin Martyr (100-165AD)
Tertullian (220AD)
Hippolytus (235AD)
Origen (254AD)
Victorinus (300AD)

These men were Ante-Nicene before Constantine's edict of Milan and a paganized Church of Rome.

HankD

 

To all:

Incidentally, there was no magic in Sunday to Pagans. Every day of the week was devoted to a god including the seventh day (Saturn's Day).

Saturday - Saturn's Day
Sunday - The day of the Sun.
Monday - The day of the Moon
Tuesday - Zeus Day.
Wednesday - Woden's Day
Thursday - Thor's Day.
Friday - Frieden's Day

HankD

 

Gidday Hank, it is well noted that Sun Worship was well entrenched in society in the days of the early church. I have a picture in a book here on the pyramids that shows a map of the path that the sun took as it travelled though the earth where it made war on the gods that lived below the earth before it came up again.

The Japanese Religion of Shinto-ism before it became merged with Buddhism was very much into Sun Worship.

As far as the god of Jupiter being worshipped on a Saturday, that is something I do not know of. What I do know is that the Saturday worship began when God conserated and made holy the Seventh Day, and throught the remnant it was kept that way until the fracturing of the early church.

The early Greeks may well have had a worship to Saturday, But our bible convincingly proves that the day that God Consecrated was kept before the nation of Greece ever came into existance.

Yahweh is Holy, Pure and above all others. The day that He found Holy to Consecrate to us is a gift, and it sets us apart from the pagans.

 

Hi Ben,

That's Saturn not Jupiter. Saturday is Saturn's Day.

If you remember my documentation concerning Tertullian, you will see that he answered the Jews charge that Christians worshipped the sun because they gathered on "Sunday" by saying that Jews must therefore worship Saturn because they worshipped on his day.

BTW Ben, it is forbidden in the Torah to speak the names of other gods. So, legally law keepers shouldn't use the secular names of the days of the week but their cardinal number as in the Scripture (first day, second day, etc).
To use their name(s) would be to honor them as having some kind of place in reality. That would be in violation of the First Commandment.

Exodus 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Again, I am not so much belittling any one's faith practice but answering the challenges and objections of sabbatarians.

After all the name of this thread is "What about the Sabbath?! Many Baptists do not keep the Sabbath.. Why not???".

I am directly addressing the question and explaining why I do not keep the literal seventh day Sabbath.

In addition, I have documented the fact that many in the early Church observed Sunday as the day of common worship. They held that it was a celebration of the Lord's Day, the day after the Sabbath upon which day the Lord was resurrected.

Many claims are made for the early Church but rarely is documentation provided as I have done.
This documentation was in answer to the often made charge that the paganized Church of Rome was the author of Sunday keeping. Right or wrong, the early Church and leadership practiced Sunday keeping long before christianity was paganized.

Last, I am trying to provide a ground of understanding among Christians. I resent the fact that many sabbatarians accuse Sunday "keepers" of either apostasy or theological/historical ignorance (ignorance perhaps) and brand us with the mark of the beast without examining the reasons or turning a deaf ear as to why we are not led to keep the literal Sabbath.
So I appreciate the opportunity presented by the question and the BB locale to air the answers.

Also, I understand and respect the view of seventh day Sabbath keepers.

Often times when answers are provided, tempers flare, accusations are made and we (first/eighth day observers) are consigned to the Lake of Fire. So, I also appreciate the restraint shown here.

Colossians 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Peace
HankD

[ May 26, 2003, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Hank,

Considering the way some debates on the Baptist Board, particuarly ones where people are on definitae opposing sides of an argument are concerned. I think that you are a breath of fresh air in the way that you conduct your argument. Your ideas are well thought out and carefully researched (Sorry about the Jupiter mix up )

I heartily agree with you about the way that a number of people who are into Saturday sabbath keeping go on, and they do themselves no favours by it either. Others who take another view are often as bad or worse.

Again I would like to bring up the idea that the Jewish law which was in effect to enable Salvation is no longer in effect because of Jesus Christ and what He has done for us. Yet I would like to point out that the Seventh Day rest was given to all in Genesis, and is predating the Jewish Law. Secondly I would like to emphasise that the 10 Commandments are the basis that God has given in order for society to function. Most countries that couldent care less for God still have a judicial system based upon the Ten Commandments. Even in Japan a day of rest is expected for a working week.

I bring that up to prove that even in Asia, countries untouched by the Gospel until westernisation, are still based onGods Ten Laws, Ten Laws that are brought up in Revelation 14:12 as being in parallel with Faith in Jesus.

 

Agreed (for the most part). We have been here before. The Law was meant for Israel. they were meant to be a witness to His Law to provoke the gentiles to keep it.

Remember, the Law was meant for the unregenate...

Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man...

To reprove/convict of sin.

There is now a New Covenant, a Gospel to be preached to the entire human race until He returns. This Gospel is to be unfettered by Hebrew legalisms.

Where do the legalisms end off and a desire to please God begin? There are many things in the Scripture which are not exactly clear concerning this (Tithing, Sabbath-keeping, certain forms of worship, etc).

There is a reason for this. I believe some things are unclear so that we have ample opportunity to make faith decisions "the just shall live by faith" and the opportunity to obey His (Jesus) commandments such as "love one another" by respecting each others differing convictions.
We can discuss these differences in that spirit.

HankD

 

Hank, here is a point that I would like tobring up for discussion.

Most people are in agreement that the Early church kept the Saturday Sabbath, because of all the Jewish people who belonged to the Church, or Messianic Jews as they are known today.

So why stop? Why not keep on Evangalising Jews into the churches on the Sabbath?

Maybe it has to do with the fact that People who kept the Sabbath were punished and often paid with there lives under Roman Catholic Law. There Crime? being Judaisers. Is it possible that a wedge has been placed between the Gentiles and the Church that we were Grafted into?

Why not keep on meeting on the Sabbath, and evangalising Christ to the Jews?

 

Personally, I don't agree that the early church "kept" Sabbath. It can not be proven by the Scriptures. They certainly took advantage of the fact that Hebrews assembled on the Sabbath and went to the synagogues to preach the gospel.
It is unlikely that anyone who was baptised was welcomed back at the synagogue.
No doubt there were those believers who desired to keep the Sabbath. But I am of the mind that they assembled on the Lord's Day.

Why stop? This question has been well addressed in this thread. Personally I am not led of the Spirit or Scripture to keep the seventh day.
If we are in Christ then we are "keeping" the heavenly sabbath 24/7. I am not "keeping" the earthly Sabbath when I assemble on the first day of the week but fellowshipping with other believers on resurrection day (eighth day), the ratification day of the New Covenant.

If others are led to memorialize the earthly Sabbath and the practice is a result of their faith, then let them do so.

HankD