The "Message" Bible ???

S&T stated earlier:

satanists believe that satan is the ruler of hell, and that they will be with him there for the big party. Everything that God has, satanism has polar opposites., hence, Heaven and hell. The right hand[God] the left hand[satan] etc.

Scott stated:

And interestingly enough, they don't use the words "As above, so below." In fact, the only places in which so-called occultists use the words it refers to earth, not Hell.

S&T:

Come on Scott, it is right in the text....bolded. The altar is in hell . As above, so below are also bolded. You are straining a gnat. I have shown that it is a commonly used term in beliefs that God abhors.

Scott:

The fact is that people have been getting saved because of the testimony of the Message, and not once have I ever seen someone read the Message and follow Satan because of a quote that is similar to something that another says.

S&T:

Why are you twisting my words. I never said that the message led people to satanism. I said that it had a plethora of phrases [a group of words] that are COMMONLY used by people from the occult, new age, mysticism, psycho babble and self help, etc.

Scott:

In fact, Satanists will often say certain Biblical passages backwards, and the Satanic Bible has several Scripture references. Should we eliminate those words because some ignorant soul has used similar words?

S&T:

If satanist quote the bible that is one thing, as they love to twist and mock the words of The Most High. If godly men choose to use their terms in a paraphrase, that is another. The scriptures tells us to be separate, AND to have no appearence of evil.

Scott:

I've seen people who came out of Satanism as well.

S&T:

Let me rephrase my question more specifically. Have you ever been in on a deliverence from demonic possession / opression? I would not go in there using that "butterknife". I would be concerned about having a re-run of the sons of sceva incident. When Jesus met the adversary head on, He quoted from the Hebrew scriptures [TeNaKh].After all, He was the Word made manifest and He was God manifest in the flesh....well..some bibles are clear on that:

1 Timothy 3:16

KJV - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

LITERAL - And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

MESSAGE - This Christian life is a great mystery, far exceeding our understanding, but some things are clear enough: He appeared in a human body, was proved right by the invisible spirit, was seen by angels. He was proclaimed among all kinds of peoples, believed in all over the world, taken up into heavenly glory.

Colossians 2: 8-9

KJV - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

LITERAL - Watch that there not be one robbing you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

MESSAGE - They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings . But that's not the way of Christ. Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly.

Note:
Invisible spirit and spirit beings. Interesting choices.


Scott:
So you are saying that you have seen someone read the Message and decide to follow Satan because of that phrase? The reality is that people are getting saved through the translation known as the Message. If it was as Satanic as you make it sound, this would be consider that to be quite an impossibility.

Any written testimony to the contrary?

S&T:

Twisting my words has now progressed to trying to put words in my mouth.

 

from a tarot card site:

So this Magician is not Christ nor a Christ look-alike. He is a contra-Christ or an anti-Christ. In the book that comes with the cards, he's called Hermes. There's two Hermes. One Hermes was known as Mercury or the Winged Messenger of the gods. This is the Hermes to which the book refers, but the Magician card in no deck we've seen could be this Hermes as the Winged Messenger was not a magician. (To be fair, this seems a common mistake in Tarot & we really don't know why.) If the Magician is Hermes, he is Hermes Trismegistus (eg, thrice blessed), also known as the Egyptian god Thoth, who was a magician. The magical Hermes wrote the Emerald Tablet with its famous magical expression, "As above, so below", which both the belt & the magician's hands (pointing above & below) symbolize. On this card, the red cloak covers the belt, which, together with the reversed hand position makes a muddle of the symbolism. Believing him to be more a messenger than a magician, the book calls him a trickster & accuses him of treachery - & the trickster idea in relation to the planet Mercury is technically wrong anyway as Mercury is a sacred planet (references: H.P. Blavatsky, Alice Bailey & others). Nor will any sane magician stoop to mere tricks. They leave that to the jugglers who work on stage, sawing women in half & other such rubbish.

from another site:

We do not call electrical resistance, or economic laws, unreal, on the ground that they are not directly perceived by the senses. Our magical doctrine is universally accepted by sceptics --- only they wish to make Magick itself an exception!

Abstracted from Magick in Theory and Practice by Aleister Crowley


THE SEVEN GREAT EGYPTIAN HERMETIC PRINCIPLES

l. The Principle of Mentalism - "The all is mind: the universe is mental."

2. The Principle of Correspondence - "As above, so below; as below, so above."

3. The Principle of Vibration - "Nothing rests: everything moves: everything vibrates."

4. The Principle of Polarity - "Everything is dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled."

5. The Principle of Rhythm - "Everything flows, out and in; everything has its tides; all things rise and fall; the pendulum swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates."

6. The Principle of Cause and Effect - "Every cause has its effect; every effect has its cause; everything happens according to the law; chance is but a name for law not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the law."

7. The Principle of Gender - "Gender is in everything; everything has its masculine and feminine principles; gender manifests on all planes."

S&T:

For those who are not aware, Aleister Crowley was also known as "the beast" and "666". Welcome to the church of satan. [modern founding father]

Let's move onto another phrase, as this one has been exposed thoroughly already.

 

Brian stated:

Does context mean anything to you?

S&T:

Does a plethora of phrases [not a word] that are used by every occultic group known mean anything to you?

 

BB stated:

The power of the evil one and his minions is defeated because of the living and active presence of Christ, not because of any translation you use.

S&T:

I guess my first question would be how do you study to show yourself approved if the translation that you are using very loosely follows the original Word of God. And of course, what did Jesus do when He encountered the enemy [not his minions] head on. He spoke the Word as it is written.

Matthew 4
1 Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the Devil.
2 And having fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards He hungered.
3 And coming near to Him, the Tempter said, If You are the Son of God, speak that these stones may become loaves.
4 But answering, He said, It has been written: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but on every Word going out of the mouth of God."

Deuteronomy 8
3 And He humbled you and allowed you to hunger, and then He fed you with manna, which you did not know, neither did your fathers know it , so that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes out of the mouth of the LORD man shall live.


Matthew 4
5 Then the Devil takes Him to the holy city, and he set Him on the wing of the temple.
6 And he said to Him, If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it has been written: "He shall give His angels charge concerning You, and they shall bear You on their hands, lest You strike Your foot against a stone."
7 Jesus said to him, Again it has been written: "You shall not tempt the Lord your God."

Deuteronomy 6
16 You shall not tempt the LORD your God as you tempted in Massah.


Matthew 4
8 Again the Devil takes Him to a very high mountain, and shows to Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
9 And he said to Him. I will give all these things to You if falling down, You will worship me.
10 Then Jesus said to him, Go, Satan! For it has been written: "You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve Him only."

Deuteronomy 6
13 You shall fear the LORD your God and serve Him, and shall swear by His name.

S&T:

There was no "guessing" what Jesus was saying here. He was wielding a "two edged" sword, not a "butterknife". I am sure the demonic forces, however, would feel right at home if someone threw all of those occultic terms at them.

 

I decided to use the KJV for this:

Ephesians 6
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Revelation 1
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

Revelation 2
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 19
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

No offense to the people who said the Word was not important in spiritual combat, but I would not want any of you suporting me in deliverance.

 

Scott stated:
Even granted that the "As above, So below" can be found in some occultic literature, what other phrases do we see? Plethora implies that the Message is full of them.

S&T:
Have you read the scripture about a little leaven? When I said plethora, that is what I meant. Do you want to go phrase by phrase? I have already posted some of them.


S&T stated earlier:
If satanist quote the bible that is one thing, as they love to twist and mock the words of The Most High. If godly men choose to use their terms in a paraphrase, that is another. The scriptures tells us to be separate, AND to have no appearence of evil.

Scott:
Why is it "their terms?"

S&T:
Because they believe that they have no boundaries, but we full well know that we are answerable to God, so we should have NO appearence of evil, especially in the handling of His Word.

Scott:
It wasn't the specific words at all. It was Jesus Christ who did it. Not the words. I hope you don't think that the words are what can deliver people from such things.

S&T:
Please read my earlier post. Would you go into battle without a sword? [see Eph]


S&T stated in an earlier post:

MESSAGE - This Christian life is a great mystery, far exceeding our understanding, but some things are clear enough: He appeared in a human body, was proved right by the invisible spirit, was seen by angels. He was proclaimed among all kinds of peoples, believed in all over the world, taken up into heavenly glory.

Scott:
And what is the problem with that? Spirit is used all over the Bible. Invisible is also used several times. Why is it that when the two come together it is somehow a demonic, magical phrase?

S&T:
Did you notice that spirit was small "s".

Scott:
Words are empty. Superstitions are empty. That's not the way of Christ. Perhaps you should focus on Him more than worrying about word choices.

S&T:
I do focus on Him, and He is the one who has told me that the Word is important.[see scriptures in earlier post]

S&T staed earlier:
Note:
Invisible spirit and spirit beings. Interesting choices.

Scott:
Not as strange as some of the word choices used in the KJV.

S&T:

I wonder how many billions of people have received salvation reading the KJV versus the "message". That might be an interesting study.

 

S&T stated earlier:

I guess my first question would be how do you study to show yourself approved if the translation that you are using very loosely follows the original Word of God.

BB:
That's quite a convoluted "question".

I study "to show myself approved" through the original languages and the use of multiple translations and interpretations of the written word of God. Your implied assertion is that I use "The Message" as my exclusive rendering of the scriptures. As you know, that's a false assertion and I'd appreciate it if you would have the courage and integrity to discuss the issues without trying to misrepresent those with whom you disagree.

S&T:

When I stated the term "you" I was meaning anyone [should have been clearer].

quote:
And of course, what did Jesus do when He encountered the enemy [not his minions] head on. He spoke the Word as it is written.

Matthew 4
1 Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the Devil.
2 And having fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards He hungered.
3 And coming near to Him, the Tempter said, If You are the Son of God, speak that these stones may become loaves.
4 But answering, He said, It has been written: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but on every Word going out of the mouth of God."

BB:
Hate to embarrass you here, but you've missed something very important:

The example quoted in Matthew 4 deals with Jesus' response to temptation, not casting out the demonic.

We were talking about confronting demonic powers in the sense of the demonization of a person and/or the presence of an evil spirit. If you'll look at the examples of Jesus and the disciples, they almost always (if not always) cast out the evil ones by command, not quoting scripture.

S&T:
Not embarrasing me at all. I was discussing Jesus going head to head with the adversary in that quote.[he is, after all, the leader of the minions]


S&T stated earlier:

There was no "guessing" what Jesus was saying here.

BB:
That's correct. I know what Jesus is saying because I know how to interpret scripture - in context - instead of trying to twist it to support my presuppositions.

S&T:

Debate 101:

Ad hominem attacks are not a substitute for a well constructed rebuttal.


S&T earlier:
He was wielding a "two edged" sword, not a "butterknife".

BB:
Yep. If you use scripture properly, it is a living and active force for God's kingdom. If you misuse it, you hurt yourself and others.

S&T:
Misuse would also include "weak" paraphrases and adulterating the Word with poor phrase choices that occultists use in incantations. Just my opinion.


BB:

For someone who posts under "Spirit and truth", you sure don't seem to care much about truth.

S&T:

More attacks...sigh. I hope you will work on that.

 

Here are some scripture excerpts from one of the first versions of the Message that I found on a site promoting this paraphrase. It is interesting to see how the "translator" used what is one of the many guesses for the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHVH.


The Message: Psalms, Navpress, 1994)

Psalm 8:1 - "O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is Thy name . . ."

Peterson: "Yahweh, brilliant Lord . . ."


Psalm 100:3 - "Know that the LORD Himself is God . . ."

Peterson: "Know this. Yahweh is God, and God, Yahweh."


Psalm 110:1 - "The LORD says to my Lord: . . ."

Peterson: "The word of Yahweh to my Lord: . . ."


Psalm 18:1 - "I love Thee, O LORD, my strength.

Peterson: "I love You, Yahweh - You make me feel strong.


Psalm 18:1 - "The LORD is my rock."

Peterson: " Yahweh is bedrock under my feet."


Psalm 23:1 - "The LORD is my shepherd . . ."

Peterson: "Yahweh, my shepherd!"


Psalm 27:1 - "The LORD is my light and my salvation."

Peterson: "Light, space, zest - that's Yahweh!"


Psalm 100:1 - "Shout joyfully to the LORD, all the earth."

Peterson: "On your feet now - applaud Yahweh!"

S&T:

It should be noted that when Jews are reading the Hebrew scriptures [OT] and they come to the tetragrammation [YHVH] they do not pronounce it, but instead say "HaShem" [the Name]. The Hebrew Name Yod / Hey / Vav / Hey is considered too sacred to pronounce, even by Messianic Jews.

Here is an interesting site that dicusses "the Name:

http://www.sacrednamemovement.com/snbibles.htm#WHAT

scroll down and read the topic:

Introduction: What is a sacred name bible?

There are some other interesting articles on this site as well:

http://www.sacrednamemovement.com/questpart1.htm

http://www.sacrednamemovement.com/questpart2.htm

 

Scott:

The word "Yahweh" has been around a whole lot longer than the Message. When Christ died and was resurrected, the veil of the temple was torn in two. I have no problem with the word Yahweh here - and it is a transliteration of the actual Hebrew.

S&T:

Yes, the name Yahweh has been around since the times of babylon, and I believe that it has even been found inscribed on some early cuniaform tablets in a language other than Hebrew, however,"Yahweh" is one of the many "guess" transliterations from the Hebrew Yod Hey Vav Hey. Here are some more:

Yahwah Yaveh Yahvoh Yaweh Yahova Yahovah Jahowa Jahowah Yahavah Jahavah Yahowe Yahoweh Jahaveh Jahaweh Yahaveh Yahaweh Jahuweh Yahuweh Iahueh Jahuwah Yahuwah Yahu Jahu Yahvah Jahvah Jahve Jahveh Yahve Yahwe Yaohu Yahway Yaohu Yahvah Yahuwah Iahueh Yahuah

Jesus called Him Abba [Father] not Yahweh

Scott:

I'm seen three - all of them spurious at best.

S&T:

Spurious is in the discernment of the beholder.

Scott:

And you miss the point of what "appearance" means. There's a good thread on that in the main Baptist section. Taking this to a logical extreme, we may say that since occultists use English, we shouldn't use English, as we do not want to appear to be like them.

S&T:

Instead of trying to take this discussion in another direction, let's just discuss whether these terms are used in satanic incantations to conjur spirits instead. That is more than a little leaven in my opinion.Would you agree?

Scott:

Jesus Christ is the Word, according to John 1. He is the one who is able to cast out demons, not magical phrases from the book. But let's think about this for a bit. Let's say that there are specific words we have to say to cast out demons. Doesn't it make good sense to use the Aramaic phrases that Jesus used to cast out demons? Forget the Message - why even use English? Do we not want to copy the same words that Jesus used? Or is the KJV the translation that demons hate so much?

S&T:

First of all, why do some of you people defending the message keep trying to paint me as a KJV only person after I have repeatedly stated many times that I am not on this translation forum. Secondly I am quite familiar with Aramaic, and Hebrew. It is not about the original languages. It is about whether phrases that are used by satanists, wiccans, etc to conjur in incantations, and by theosophists, new age, tarot cards, etc are actually in the original language texts. If you have any language background, it is clear to see that they are not. So why are they contaminating God's Word, and why are you and others on this thread defending it as though they are in the original texts?

Scott:

At least for people my age (20-25), I've seen the Message be unusually effective in seeing people's lives changed, far more than the KJV for them.

S&T:

What I have seen in my research is that the word of God has been changed, and not for the better. If a new believer uses this bible as their exclusive form of study, they are in the world unarmed.Just my opinion.

[ December 10, 2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Spirit and Truth ]