Books on Dispensational Truth.

Pastor Larry said:

You admit that church history only began about 2000 years ago, which is a strictly dispensational position.

No, I would affirm that Old Covenant saints are as much a part of the Israel of God as New Covenant saints.

"Church history" is a common enough phrase referring to the post-apostolic history of the Christian religion, as I'm sure you know. It was a nice attempt at spin, though.

 

Must admit i find the statement "Dispensational Truth" an oxymoron (to borrow a phrase)

Fully accept that Jesus will return and everything will change, but all the dispensationalists I ever read, or try to read, seem to dwell in the world of fantasy.

God will work every thing out in His way and then we will know for sure, but until that happens I will probably sontinue in whay I belive to be the scriptural way, that we are living in the last days - the 'millenium' and not wait for a special thousand year period.

Regards
Bob

 

The problem is that the Israel of God in Gal 6:16 is shown to be distinct from the church, not identical to the church. This is an exegetical issue that is often overlooked.

Yes, I know but it is a most curious phrase by those who deny the meaning it commonly has.

 

Who are you reading? Many dispensational writers have some difficulty to be sure, but so do a lot of non-dispensational writers.

While this is a thread about books, I will simply comment that I question this: If this is the millennium, why doesn't it even remotely resemble what the authoritative author on this subject (God) described the millennium to be? That is the major problem I have with a non-dispensational view. The modern writers are really side issues. The description of the millennium is clear in Scripture yet we glibly redefine or recharacterize the descriptions so we can shoehorn them in to this depraved world we live in. The millennium is a time of joy and peace for the whole world; that can hardly fit modern society.

Okay, I am done ... Let's return to the books ...

 

Over the last two years I have been under the teaching of my pastor who teaches on Dispensation. Being a fairly new christian, I have some difficulty but I did find a chart the other day while online... at biblebelievers.com

Initially I was looking for a chart for chronlogical bible reading according to the time each book took place not the order that it was written. Does anyone know of a site to get a KJV chart in reference to this?

In Christ,
JAX

 

Pastor Larry said:

The problem is that the Israel of God in Gal 6:16 is shown to be distinct from the church, not identical to the church. This is an exegetical issue that is often overlooked.

Sure it's overlooked, because it's wrong. If Paul's letter to the Galatians affirms anything, it is the breakdown of the distinction between Israel and the Church. It is this very letter that says the promises and blessings made to Abraham and his seed culminate in his Seed, Christ (3:16), and Christ's adopted brethren, the Church (3:29). All who confess faith in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, are children of Abraham.

Yes, I know but it is a most curious phrase by those who deny the meaning it commonly has.

Not at all. Church history is, as the name suggests, history - not ecclesiology.

 

The word "kai" is a conjuntive meaning "and." It makes no sense if he is talking about the same group. A number of commentaries will bring this out. You read it differently because of your theology. With my theology, I am under no constraint to say anything other than teh text says.

Not at all -- it removes the breakdown between jew and Gentiles, not between Israel and teh church. Paul's point is that in the church, there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile (another reason why the church is not the in OT--there was a distinction then).

But when people use the term "church history" they are referring to the years after the life of Christ, the only years that can properly be called church history. On this point, it is not a big deal. It is just a curious usage of a phrase that appears to admit the very thing they want to deny. That's all.

Again, we are off topic, so I will lay out of this.

 

I'm back!!

Now discuss on Dispensationalism.

It is Biblical?

Dispensationalism teaches many subgroups and divisions of believers:

There is a subgroup called: OT Saint
There is a subgroup called: Church Age Saint
There is a subgroup called: Trib-Jew
There is a subgroup called: Trib-Saint
There is a subgroup called: 144 Super Jewish
Evangelist
There is a subgroup called: Millennial Saint

What does scripture teach?

Romans 12:5 "So we, being many, are one bodyin Christ, and every one members one of another."

1 Corinthians 10:17 "For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."

1 Cor. 12:12-13- show context

"For as the body is one and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

1 Corinthians 12:20 & 25 "But now are they many members, yet but one body[/b]. That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another."

Ephesians 2:16 "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who us above all, and through all, and in you all."

Colossians 3:15 "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful."

Colossians 1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflications of Christ in my flesh for His body's sake, which is the church:"

Ephesians 3:21 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout ALL ages, world without end. Amen."

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Ephesians 2:14-15 "For he is our peace, who hath both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contianed in ordiances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

Galatians 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor femail: for ye are ]all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The plan of salvation is for ALL people both Old Testament and New Testament, all have ONE faith in Jesus Christ- Gal. 3:26.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Posttrib/Amill

 

I'm back!!

Now discuss on Dispensationalism.

It is Biblical?

Dispensationalism teaches many subgroups and divisions of believers:

There is a subgroup called: OT Saint
There is a subgroup called: Church Age Saint
There is a subgroup called: Trib-Jew
There is a subgroup called: Trib-Saint
There is a subgroup called: 144 Super Jewish
Evangelist
There is a subgroup called: Millennial Saint

What does scripture teach?

Romans 12:5 "So we, being many, are one bodyin Christ, and every one members one of another."

1 Corinthians 10:17 "For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."

1 Cor. 12:12-13- show context

"For as the body is one and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

1 Corinthians 12:20 & 25 "But now are they many members, yet but one body[/b]. That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another."

Ephesians 2:16 "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who us above all, and through all, and in you all."

Colossians 3:15 "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful."

Colossians 1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflications of Christ in my flesh for His body's sake, which is the church:"

Ephesians 3:21 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout ALL ages, world without end. Amen."

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Ephesians 2:14-15 "For he is our peace, who hath both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contianed in ordiances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

Galatians 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor femail: for ye are ]all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The plan of salvation is for ALL people both Old Testament and New Testament, all have ONE faith in Jesus Christ- Gal. 3:26.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Posttrib/Amill

 

All of those passages refer to the church which is one body. That should not be confused with Israel that is distinct from the body. Israel is never called the body of Christ; the church is. We are all one body in teh church. That was not true in Israel.

In fact the point of all those passages is to show the difference between the OT and NT; a difference that non-dispensationalists don't recognize consistently. Read the commentaries and see how many times in the OT, "church" is substituted for "Israel." Now read the Bible and see how many times "church" is substituted for "Israel." In the former case, you will find scads of occasions; in the latter you will find none. That is the problem. The commentators say things that Scripture doesn't say because of their preconceptions about what their system says. Their system says that OT is the church and therefore they talk about the church in the OT, even though Scripture never talks about that. That is a serious and overlooked problem. We must say what Scripture says.

You say that OT saints were saved by faith in Jesus. I will put to you the same challenge I have put to everyone else here -- the challenge that no one has yet met: Show a place in the OT where Christ is made the object of faith for salvation.

[ January 24, 2003, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

 

Tomorrow - Sunday night, I will post discuss on dispensationalism more.

 

I'm back!

I suggest you to read http://www.frii.com/~gosplow/disp2.html

It is very good! I do not have to type long post on dispensationalism. I just give you the website on dispesantionalism to read it, save my neck. Go ahead you might not agree with this.

2 Tim 2:15 tells us, we are responsible to study the Bible.

Dispensationalists intepret 'dividing the truth' means to separate into two parts. Actually, it means to study digging more deeper- analyze.

the challenge that no one has yet met: Show a place in the OT where Christ is made the object of faith for salvation

Yes. I urge you to read whole Hebrews chapter 11 is talking about Old Testament saints were saved by the faith same as we have faith in Christ.

Not just for Jew saints only, also, Rahab was Gentile, she was saved by the faith only during the time at Jericho - Heb. 11:31.

Rahab was saved not by doing the law or work, she was saved by faith in God only.

Abraham was saved by believed in God, not by doing works and laws in Romans 4:3-5 - "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is COUNTED for righteousness."

Even King David was saved by the faith without works - Romans 4:6 too.

We are saved by the faith only, not by works - Eph. 2:8-9.

Same with Old Testament saints were saved by the faith only.

Nothing chnage with the plan of salvation since beginning to now, and it will alway be same plan through Great Tribulation till Christ comes.

Galatians 3:14 tells us, that the covenant of Abraham from God come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, the same thing we received the promise of the Holy Spirit through FAITH.

Gal. 3:16 tells us, Abraham's seed was made promise by God, the seeds to many people, which we through the seed is Christ's.

Gal. 3:26 tells us, we are ALL children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Not just for New Testament saints only, also include Old Testament saints too.

Gal. 3:28 tells us, either Jew or Gentile, ALL are ONE in Christ- seed.

Gal 3:29 tells us, if you are in Christ, then you are part of Abraham's seed - Gen. 12:2-3.

Gal. 3:6 tells us, Abraham was saved by believed God, its refer with Romans 4:3-5.

God have only ONE plan of salvation from the beginning to the end of the world depend on: FAITH

Nothing chnage with God's plan.

Dispensation means stewardship.

It do not mean, there are different times, different plans of salvation.

It means, duty, administering, responsibility.

Eph. 1:10 tells us, Christ is administering of the fulness of times from the beginning(creation) to the end of the world, that he controls EVERYTHING on earth and in heaven.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Again, not all of us do this. There are a great many of us who understand this properly, just as you do. We agree that it means to "dig deeper" as you say. I would again encourage to make distinctions between the sine qua non of dispensationalism and what some dispensationalists may teach. Like covenant theology, dispensationalism is not monolithic.

FIrst, let me clarify. I SHOuld say Christ is not the "content" of faith. In all ages, God is the object of faith. But here, you failed the challenge. I said "Show a place in the OT where Christ is made the object of faith for salvation. Hebrews 11 explicitly does not do that. The content of faith in Hebrews 11 is not Christ; it is God. Those Heb 11 saints are not said to be believing "in Christ."

I agree that the OT believers were saved by faith apart from works. NO one has yet to give a place where Christ is made the content of that faith in the OT.

YOu are right. Dispensationalism does not disagree with that (though some dispensationalists do). We agree that they were saved by faith. But you have not shown a place where Christ is made the content of that faith in the OT.

You refer often to Galatians. But remember who Galatians was written to. The "we" and "us" and "our" is the church, not Israel. YOu have taken truths that apply to the church and applied them to Israel without respect for the context and the argument of Paul. In the church, we are saved by faith in Christ Jesus; the OT does not teach that. In the church, all are one in Christ (i.e., there are no racial distinctions); in the OT, that is not true.

I would not argue with this. It really means economy or administration. And you are right that it does not mean different plans of salvation. However, there is clearly progressive revelation and at any given point of history, man is reponsible for the revelation at that time. The OT saints were not responsible for NT revelation -- they didn't have it yet. The idea of "Time" is explicit in dispensations but is rather a necessary correlation.

Again, I am not sure that you are really arguing against dispensationalism as much as you are against certain things that some dispensationalists teach. I would join you in combatting salvation in the OT by faith+works. I would join you in rejecting two kingdoms. But those things are not dispensationalism.

[ January 27, 2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

HEY!!!

Jesus Christ is GOD!!

Jesus Christ already met Moses at the buring ash tree, He told him, "I AM" Obivously, Jesus already met MOses.

Also, Jesus already met Abraham.

Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day day: and he saw it, and was glad." - John 8:56.

Abraham faith on Christ, because Christ is the Lord!

You are not alone. I did discuss with my friend by email several months ago. my friend is dispensationalist. He told me the same thing as you recently told me.

All Old Testament saints have faith on the Lord. Jesus is the Lord.

You know better than that! Jesus is God.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Posttrib/Amill

 

I Agree but the Father is not the Son, and that is the issue here. In the OT, the Son is never made the content of faith for salvation. IN THe NT, it is clear: Believe on the LOrd Jesus Christ and you will be saved. It is all through the NT. There is no similar statement in the OT. And that is the issue: The OT Believer did not believe "in Jesus" for salvation. They would have had no idea what you were talking about. You are reading the NT Back onto the OT and that cannot be done.

 

Tomorrow night, I will post more on dispnesationalism

 

What defines the 'church'? Not a building or a local congregation; but the real 'church' of God?

When we look throughout the New Testament we can find that God's Church is made of God's:

. Just
. Elect
. Saints
. Redeemed
. Indwelt
. Children
. Faithful
. Sheep
. Wheat
. Brethren
. Saved
. Cleansed
. Forgiven
. Chosen
. People
. Holy
. Kingdom
. Servants

Do I miss anything in the New Testament?

There are pretty all-encompassing list of words that describle God's Church. When we search the New Testament for these words; we can quickly find examples of people that are part of God's Church.

If you haven't figured out the similarity in them before you get to the end, I will list it at the end of the scriptures.

You might be surprised to find out what it is.

{color=red]God's Just
Proverbs 3:33 "The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just"

God's Elect
Isaiah 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth"

God's Saints
Psalms 30:4 "Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness"

God's Redeemed
Exodus 15:13 "thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation."

God's Indwelt
Isaiah 63:11 "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them out of the seas with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?"

God's Children
Deuteronomy 13:18 "When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee tis day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God. Ye are the children of the LORD your God."

God's Faithful
Psalms 31:23 "O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer."

God's Righteous
Psalms 34:17 "The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles."

God's Sheep
Ezekiel 34:11 "For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out."

God's Wheat
Jeremiah 23:28 "The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD."

God's Brethren
Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plaques; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. Though he be fruitful among his brethren."

God's Saved
Jeremiah 17:14 "Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise."

God's Cleansed
Psalms 51:7 "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken my rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Creat in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."

God's Forgiven
Psalms 85:2 "Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast overed all their sin. Selah."

God's Chosen
Psalms 33:12 "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whoom he hath chosen for his own inheritance."

God's People
II Chronicles 23:16 "And Jehoiada made a covenant between him, and between all the people, and between the king, that they should be the LORD's people."

God's Holy
Deuteronomy 14:2 "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hast chosen thee to be a pecukiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth."

God's KIngdom
Psalms 145:13 "Thy kingdom is an EVERLASTING kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout ALL generations."

God's Servants
Daniel 3:23-26 "And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnance. Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O King. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire."[/color]

The similarity of all of these synonymns for people who make up the church is this:

They are all found throughout the OLD TESTAMENT!!

Dispensationalism doctrine does not make a sense to me.

All saints in the Bible are God's family. ONE family of God through the Calvary.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Posttrib/Amill

 

What defines the 'church'? Not a building or a local congregation; but the real 'church' of God?

When we look throughout the New Testament we can find that God's Church is made of God's:

. Just
. Elect
. Saints
. Redeemed
. Indwelt
. Children
. Faithful
. Sheep
. Wheat
. Brethren
. Saved
. Cleansed
. Forgiven
. Chosen
. People
. Holy
. Kingdom
. Servants

Do I miss anything in the New Testament?

There are pretty all-encompassing list of words that describle God's Church. When we search the New Testament for these words; we can quickly find examples of people that are part of God's Church.

If you haven't figured out the similarity in them before you get to the end, I will list it at the end of the scriptures.

You might be surprised to find out what it is.

{color=red]God's Just
Proverbs 3:33 "The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just"

God's Elect
Isaiah 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth"

God's Saints
Psalms 30:4 "Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness"

God's Redeemed
Exodus 15:13 "thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation."

God's Indwelt
Isaiah 63:11 "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them out of the seas with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?"

God's Children
Deuteronomy 13:18 "When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee tis day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God. Ye are the children of the LORD your God."

God's Faithful
Psalms 31:23 "O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer."

God's Righteous
Psalms 34:17 "The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles."

God's Sheep
Ezekiel 34:11 "For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out."

God's Wheat
Jeremiah 23:28 "The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD."

God's Brethren
Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plaques; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. Though he be fruitful among his brethren."

God's Saved
Jeremiah 17:14 "Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise."

God's Cleansed
Psalms 51:7 "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken my rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Creat in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."

God's Forgiven
Psalms 85:2 "Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast overed all their sin. Selah."

God's Chosen
Psalms 33:12 "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whoom he hath chosen for his own inheritance."

God's People
II Chronicles 23:16 "And Jehoiada made a covenant between him, and between all the people, and between the king, that they should be the LORD's people."

God's Holy
Deuteronomy 14:2 "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hast chosen thee to be a pecukiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth."

God's KIngdom
Psalms 145:13 "Thy kingdom is an EVERLASTING kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout ALL generations."

God's Servants
Daniel 3:23-26 "And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnance. Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O King. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire."[/color]

The similarity of all of these synonymns for people who make up the church is this:

They are all found throughout the OLD TESTAMENT!!

Dispensationalism doctrine does not make a sense to me.

All saints in the Bible are God's family. ONE family of God through the Calvary.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Posttrib/Amill

 

Sorry,

It looks little messy. Try my best to doing post. I hope that you understand my post.