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I'm saying that if a Satanist comes to the courthouse and demands that there be a monument of similar size be put up there to honor his religion, should he, by Moore's reasoning, allowed to post them? Why or why not?

 

Ed and Sherrie, art thou sufficiently woed? C'mon, who still speaks in King James English really?

 

I'm shocked at the Christians on this thread who simply don't care or worse, mock that anyone WOULD care about these being removed.
Nobody lobbies or demanded the ten commandments be put up there. Historically these have been in government buildings, ESPECIALLY courthouses, since I can remember. It is the demanded removal that is being protested.
Our founding fathers weren't Satanists. Our laws and freedoms weren't based on Satanic principles. They were based on principles that came from God fearing men. The scriptures and Christian living are part of our heritage. The removal isn't just taking away a sign of Christianity, it's taking away a part of history. Not that history is more important, unless you spell it correctly. (HisStory)
Who speaks KJV style English? The KJV bible does, and we understand it, we read it, we love it, we trust those words. For me, picking up and reading the KJV version feels like home. Sure I can read a different one, but it isn't the same. I can't imagine making fun of it or someone that quotes verses from it.
Joshua, I'm especially suprised and offended to be hearing it from you.
Gina

 

I apologize. It was an attempt at levity to lighten the situation up. This and many other threads have deteriorated into name-calling, and worse, and it was (possibly) a mis-directed attempt to smile. I'm sorry if anyone was offended to the bone, and withdraw from a discussion that I apparantly am wrong to not feel strongly about. Thanks for pointing that out, and please accept my apologies.

In His Grip,
joshua

 

Thank you. Perhaps "offended" was a poor word choice, disappointed would have been better. I knew this wasn't your typical way of dealing with disagreements so again, thanks.
Gina

 

FWIW, I said before the real issue (IMO) is separation of God and State not Church and State.
Separation of Church and State is proper, separation of God and State is not because as Judge Moore and others have said the concept of Creator God and America’s need of Him is woven into the fabric of the writings and documents of the Founding Fathers. They never intended for God to be railroaded out of our government but to keep the American Church out of the hands of the politician to keep our nation from becoming the American equivalent of “the Holy Roman Empire” which gave birth to the religious bloodbaths of the Crusades, the Spanish and Latin Inquisitions.

Some may feel just the opposite, that the Supreme Court is trying to nip this association of judeo-christian religiosity and the State from heading in the direction of an institutional entity, After all the Hindus have no 10 commandments in their religion and/or books.

Personally (even if it is technically a step in that direction) I disagree that the commandments should be removed from government buildings because the spiritual sentiments of the Founding Fathers were from the Bible and not the Bagda Vita.

Judge Moore (IMO) is the closest thing to a 21st century prophet that we have seen in the history of this nation (again, IMO). This is a God and America issue, not a Church and State issue.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

This begs the question: Where in any of the FOunding Fathers quotes is the Ten Commandments even mentioned. Why are there not laws against not respecting parents in the Consitution, if we were indeed founded on the 10 commandments. What about coveting? Where are those laws?

To say the country is founded on the 10 commandments is an unprovable point.

 

I don't think anybody said "The U.S. was founded on the 10 commandments alone". It was founded in biblical principles and ideals. The 10 commandments are part of that. Most people going in a courthouse have broken one of the ten commandments and that's why they're there. That part of the bible fits. However, they could have just as easily put up "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" on the door of the IRS and I'd still say they shouldn't be forced to take it down.
Gina

 

An image is different than a word.
What did Moses write the ten commandments on?
Gina

 

An image is different than a word.
What did Moses write the ten commandments on?
Gina </font>[/QUOTE]There is a strong sense among the non-Christian community that Judge Moore is placing the Ten Commandments as equal to a deity. They think that the whole thing is pretty funny. It is hard to defend Christianity with people like Judge Moore around who blatantly disregard the law, especially without a clear Biblical reason to do so.

 

Please provide proof that non-Christians see us as equating the ten commandments themselves as a deity. They might equate people who believe in the ten commandments with God, but I've not run across anyone who thought I worshipped the bible because I believe in it.
In a way, you might be right, but it's not the same. Non-Christians see people like Madonna and Michael Jordan as Gods. In that sense, their perception of our love for God's word might be along that line of thinking. I don't think non-Christians are of that much less intelligence that they can't differentiate between worshipping something as God as thinking something is to be treasured and valued. There may be a few whackos, sure, but that's about the extent of it.
On a different note, I wonder if anyone has tried to have it preserved as being a historical monument or tradition. People might be more accepting of that. Throw out talk about how great the usa is, how so and so who helped set this particular monument was in the army or his grandfather fought for this country, blah blah blah. People will listen to that and have respect for it long before they care that it has anything to do with God.
Gina

 

But Scott,

God holds nations as well as individuals responsible for their deeds.

Creation cannot be taught in our public schools.

The Law of the land is the cruel pro-death for the innocent and helpless “fetus”.

The Supreme Court has now put their stamp of approval on a practice which was considered a perversion even among unbelievers for millennia.

Which shall it be?

Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 26:2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.

 

I didn't tape record the conversation. Sorry. It's not about believing in it. The two didn't really have a problem with It's about making a big fat monument of it and showing it off to everyone. It's about circumventing procedure to put the monument up in the middle of the night. To them, this fight is about the Ten Commandments, not about Christianity - Judge Moore is more concerned with a big block of stone than he is at being Christ-like. I can totally understand their point of view.

 

The evidence suggests that this quote is, indeed, a false one. The quote originally came from Barton's "The Myth of Separation." He gives two sources for this statement: Harold K. Lane, Liberty! Cry Liberty! (1939) and Fredrick Nyneyer, First Principles in Morality and Economics: Neighborly Love and Ricardo's Law of Association (1958)

However, no such quote has ever been found among any of James Madison’s writings. None of the biographers of Madison, past or present, have ever run across such a quote, and most if not all would love to know where this false quote originated. Apparently, David Barton did not check the work of the secondary sources he quotes. (He has since admitted that the quote, like a number of others he’s cited and that others have repeated, cannot be confirmed.) Robert Alley, a distinguished historian at the University of Richmond, has written of his unsuccessful attempt to track down the origin of the Madison quote and about the implausibility of it as a Madison statement. (See “Public Education and the Public Good,” William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal, Summer 1995, pp. 316-318.)

So this quote, just like many others, is more than likely a figment of an author's imagination than a REAL quote by Madison. Got any othe quotes you need me to debunk for you?

Coveting? Nothing there. Sabbath? Nothing in the Constitution. Idols? Not there. Obeying parents? Not there. Am I missing something?

Somebody has to. Isn't it better to be dialoguing with the unbelieving world than to protest the removal of an unlawful piece of rock?

 

I'm looking for the command that says that taking down the 10 commandments is sinful. And then there's the burden of proof of connecting taking down the 10 commandments with the result of immorality.