Can One Have Faith In Christ Apart From Scriptural Revelation

For some reason, I am not allowed to edit my own post...

This statement was a typo. Let me make the clarification:

Assurance – Most of the time God provides assurance to me through the scriptures. Sometimes I have received assurance from God in very direct and specific ways through other people, not the scriptures.

 

my take is this.... there is a general revelation which is found in nature, conscience, human experience etc. that is good enough to let us know God is out there but not sufficient unto salvation

then there is personal revelation... this is from God moving in your life to stir your soul. He gives us the faith to believe in Him. So the Holy Spirit revealed the need for a savior, and He gave me the faith to accept His free gift of Grace. The Gospel is sufficient to save you.. not the written Bible. It can be found in the Bible, but often is found observed in a believers life first and then the Holy Spirit draws us to Himself ...

 

by the love of Christ exhibited in our lives. They see that we are different and the Holy Spirit allows us to exhibit His glory and love and grace through our lives. Of course we need to explain the Gospel to them. But the Scripture is the written Word of God and is inerrant. And Scripture points to the Living Word of God who is Christ Jesus our Savior. Our lives should be lived in such a way as to clearly exhibit the Gospel, which is the good news about the Living Word who is alive in us. As Paul said we need to be crucified with Christ and it should be He who lives in us. That is how they will see the Gospel in our lives. I knew no Scriptures (had not read any, had no time for that till after I was saved) when I was saved, but I saw someone who lived the Gospel and shared it with me. I read the Scripture after recieving the Gospel.

 

OK I see where you are coming from. The Gospel in not nessescarily the Scripture.

Many of The people saved in Christ's day had not heard scripture, but still he said your faith has saved you...

So Faith in Christ is the important ingredient. Not the Scripture. Hearing the Gospel, which is contained in the Scripture. But the Scripture has no power to save us. Only Christ Jesus can do that, and I don't think He is limited to use The written word to do it. He can doo all things. But saving faith does not come from the written word... It comes from the Living Word.

 

OK I understand what you are saying... But what about Saul's conversion... He attributes it to a personal encounter with the Saviour (which is personal revelation). His knowledge of the scripture led him to kill Christians... Teach me.

 

Everyone in history has been saved through the preaching of the Gospel by a servant of Christ, except the 12 and the Apostle Paul. These alone were called directly by Christ in person. No one else will have this experience, ever! Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, not the dictated written Word necessarily, but by the Living Word through the Gospel.

 

Mark: With all due respect; didn't YOU give your life to God when YOU got saved?

I did not say that I had never heard of Jesus. I said I had never read the scriptures and did not know what being 'saved' was all about.

I know my salvation is one thing that no one (including myself) can mess up or take away from me and I stand by my life-changing experience.

I doubt the thief on the cross had ever read the scriptures, but he was hanging next to the Word and he was assured of a place in Heaven when he cried out to Jesus.

Blessings,
Sue </font>[/QUOTE]Hi sue, my salvation experience is very similar, I had never read the bible either (that I am aware of as I think back) went to church when young but never really paid much attention.

One day I went to a speggetti supper at a church with my dad and quite truthfully didnt even know he was saved (He to was new) well anyway the cooks talked as they cooked (atsa Louie, Ima Phil) and after words having no real understanding of God but realizing I needed Him got on my knees and asked Jesus in my life.

My "revelation" was others sharing.

It says in John 5:44 "That no one can come to Me (Jesus, The Word) except the Father, Who hath sent Me, draw him, ; and I will raise him on the last day."

So it appears to me that revelation of who God was came to me first before I even ever read His word, but after words I was led to His word, and as I read His word His faith also was revealed to me and as I continue to read my faith increases. so it is true faith comes from reading the word of God but initially it is a gift and continues to be a gift.

there are many who read Gods word all thier life and still never get saved, (could be wrong motives or somethingi dont know.)

It is written that by grace you are saved through faith and that (faith) not of yourselves it is a gift (revelation?) from God.

The very faith God gives us in order to be saved is a gift and then we are led to th Son.

I do believe sometimes revelation comes apart from Gods word but never contrary to it.

[ July 11, 2003, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: JesusisGod2 ]

 

"Can One Have Faith In Christ Apart From Scriptural Revelation" No. We don't know anything about Christ except from what scriptures reveal. the answer to the question is a little easier to see if it is phrased only slightly differently. "Can One Have Faith In Christ Apart From The Revelation That Is In Scriptural" No. Everything necessary for salvation is in scripture and no part of salvation is outside of scripture. Faith is Christ isn't apart from scripture so, how can salvation be apart from scripture?

 

thanks guys. I got it now. the suggested rephrasing clarifies it even more. I for 1 love this board. I have learned something from everyone here. God bless all of you, bretheren in Christ.

 

I agree - it requires a personal revelation from God in order to come to faith in Christ. But the basis of faith is knowledge of the Scriptures. </font>[/QUOTE]I disagree, but the issue may be more of semantics than an actual disagreement of fact.

It takes personal revelation from God (and acceptance of that revelation), but the written word is not required. Again I point you to Abraham – the father of our faith.

God gives us faith – the ability to trust – but faith is not the same thing as “certainty” – that is, a belief that has no room for growth.

Truth, verity, certainty - they all mean the same thing. </font>[/QUOTE]I think this is the crux of our disagreement – I define “certainty” as completeness of understanding. I define “truth” as reliable information. On this basis, I do not believe that Christians have the right to claim “certainty” because all of us are on the road of discipleship, growing in knowledge and faith. That’s why we should be humble with each other and learn from each other instead of looking for opportunities to condemn each others convictions.

Yes. We can have faith in things we don’t understand – which is good since there are many things of God which we cannot grasp with our fallen and finite minds.

Faith does not have room for growth. When you know enough about something to have faith in it, there is no room whatsoever for a change in that matter. </font>[/QUOTE]I cannot disagree more strongly. The Christian life is a growth from faith to faith, where we grow in our ability to trust God and to live by faith.

The Bible, especially the New Testament, illustrates growing in faith on nearly every page. For instance:

2 Thessalonians 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth...

Yes, you understand the broad principle I’m trying to communicate, but let me clarify your statement:

I believe that as we grow in the faith and knowledge of God we will come to deeper understandings of the call of Jesus and the Christian life. Our faith will be refined as our life is transformed and we will realize that our faith assumptions need to be refined and enhanced by the Holy Spirit. As far as “certainty” goes, we live by faith and not “certainty”. We may not understand many things in our faith journey (for instance your previous example about the shedding of blood relating to remission of sins), but we can trust them without having to have complete understanding (certainty). I don’t understand why gravity works or the cause of it (no human knows), but there is no denying the reality of it.

I did not intend to capitalize the “s”, but the BaptistBoard would not allow me to edit it when I noticed my error.

And that’s what I meant by the spirit of the commandments. The commandments are for the benefit of humanity – to give life abundantly and to teach of God.

Yes. We must also be careful of falsely judging fellow believers when they act according to the impulse and guidance of the Holy Spirit to do good works. We cannot know another’s motivation, so we should be very careful about judging according the appearances.

If you use "rules" here to mean human rules, then I would heartily agree that fundamentalists are frequently guilty of setting up their own rules in addition to and even in opposition to God's rules; but I don't think they are any more guilty of this than non-fundamentalists. </font>[/QUOTE]Certainly all believers fall into this trap but, in my opinion, biblical “conservatives” and “fundamentalists” have more of a tendency to do this because of their zeal for the scriptures.

Sure, that’s a valid point. Yet at the same time there is quite a bit of merit and obvious practical value in an “institutional” education for vocational ministry. The problem comes in when that standard is made absolute and inflexible. In my church, our vocational minister who directs our mission program does not have a seminary education. He has many years of vocational experience in administration and banking but has always had a heart for mission work. A few years ago our church extended an offer for him to come onto staff full-time and coordinate all of our mission sites and mission emphasis projects for our congregation.

Would a seminary education have benefit for him? Yes, I think so. Is it essential for him to fulfill his ministry? No, I don’t think so.

That was never my intent.

The “authority” or “inerrancy of the scriptures” have never been the subject of discussion in this thread.

I always get a very strong impression from you that you do not believe that I trust the scriptures and their authority. If that impression of your attitude is correct, they I need to inform you that you are profoundly mistaken.