A blasphemous error in the NIV

The word of the day is METAPHOR:

METAPHOR - a figure of speech containing an implied comparison
in which a word or phrase ordinarily and primarily
used of one thing is applied to another

One thing people need to learn about prophetic writings,
they are full of figures of speech and retorical techniques.

Consider the following:
Venus
Morning Star
Day Star
Evening Star
Light Bringer
Lucifer

All these descriptions and name refer to the same object:
the second planet from the son in the solar system.
Venus is also a Roman god. But we don't talk much about
Roman gods anymore, but any student of the skys knows
the second planet, Venus.
Morning Star - the planet Venus when it preceeds the sun in the sky
Day Star - the planet Venus, when away from the sun a bit
can be seen both day and night
Evening Star - the planet Venus when it flows the sun in the sky
Light Bringer - the planet venus as the Morning Star,
for you see it just before the day's light, the Sun
Lucifer - a personification of Light Bringer

I do not construe that it is a "blasphemous error" to use
the same metaphor for Jesus and Satan.
Satan is always going to imitate Jesus:
Jesus is real, Satan is a phony.

Having said that, i have somewhat against you
Word_digger:

1. Your scripture references are hard to follow.
You cite "KJV". I have on my desk (the one upon which
my computer resides) three books each labeled
"King James Version" (KJV):

They are specifically:
KJV1611
KJV1769
KJV1873
They are all different one from the other.

It really is a pain for me to have to flip through
three different paper books to see if you have correctly
cited a particular scripture. Thank you for helping
me in the future.

2. I do not take kindly to people saying my
New International Bible (NIB) contains a blasphemous error
in it. This is runing down one of my favorite Bibles.
It is unkind, if not a sin, to demean my inerrant Holy Bible: the NIB.
Thank you for your future lack of desecration of
my Holy NIB.

 

[Mock]We are told to compare Scripture with Scripture
to seek out truth. In so doing I have found a blasphemous error
in the King James Version 1611 (KJV1611):

Reuelation XXII:16 (KJV1611):
I Iesus have sent mine Angel, to
testifie vnto you these things in the
Churches. I am the roote and the offspring
of Dauid, and the bright and morning starre.

From this we can see that Iesus
("Yeshua" in Hebrew) is the morning starre.

Ifaiah XIV:12 (KJV1611)
How are though fallen from heauen,
||O lucifer, sonee of the morning? how
art thou cut downe to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations?

Sidenote: || Or, O daystarre

Ifaiah XIV:12 (KJV1611, alternate)
How are though fallen from heauen,
||O daystarre, sonee of the morning? how
art thou cut downe to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations?

This cleary calls Satan the "daystarre" and
"sonne of the morning", both titles reserved for
our blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah Iesus.

The facts are clear: The Authorized Version (AV),
the King James Version (KJV) of 1611, comparing “Scripture
with Scripture” is saying that Satan and Jesus are one
and the same. That is what the KJV1611AV literal wording
in Isaiah 14:12 implies. And that is as wrong as things can be.
Therefore, if the King James Version is inaccurate in this verse,
are you willing to trust it as the “Word of God” elsewhere?
Please think about this prayerfully.
[/mock]

I've typed this argument several times, this is
the first time i recall noting that the REAL AUTHORIZED
VERSION, the KJV1611 has two retorical questions,
the KJV1769 has no question marks but has two "!".

 

word_digger, the KJV says the same thing essentially as the NIV in the margin. The KJV translators considered it an acceptable rendering, so what's your beef?

 

ah, but no blasphemy, izzit, when the KJB associates the Messiah fr the Tribe of Judah w the LION, a clear symbol of Satan.

 

Two comments.

(1) Consider these passages:

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring *lion*, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pet. 5:8, KJV)

"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the *Lion* of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." (Rev. 5:5, KJV)

Does this mean that the KJV, comparing "Scripture with Scripture," is saying that the devil and Jesus are one and the same? And does this constitue a "blasphemous error" in the KJV?

(2) Consider this verse:

"Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the *morning stars* sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job. 38:6-7, KJV)

Does this mean that the KJV, comparing "Scripture with Scripture," is saying that Jesus is one among many "morning stars," and that there's more than one God? Does this constitute a "blasphemous error" in the KJV?

A suggestion when comparing Scripture with Scripture -- take the CONTEXT into consideration. It's amazing how many "blasphemous errors" in *any* English Bible version disappear when one reads them in context.

 

"word_digger"???? You obviously didn't dig very deep.

I'm too tired to respond point by point *again* to this popular but erroneous charge against the NIV. Instead, see http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/isa14_12.html .

 

word_digger, could you please dig up the rule that says when a figure of speech is applied to a person, it can never be applied again by anyone to somebody else? Thanks.

 

You quote, "If the devil is a lion, is Jesus Christ also a lion as well? Are they one and the same?"

You are so mistaken! Look at the KJV! Look at 2 words: "A" and "THE." Are they same? Absolutely not! The devil is as "a roaring lion." Jesus is the Lion of ..." The Scripture said that the devil is "AS" a roaring lion. It also stated that Jesus IS the Lion. Look at first letter of lion -- capital letter "L"ion and other is little l --"l"ion.

 

So . . . you were saying?

. .
. .
. .
. .

 

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. (2 Peter 1:18 NIV)

</font>[/QUOTE]So you're attacking the NIV editors for agreeing with the KJV editors? OK, got it.

 

1. in the Gk, of course, there isn't punctuation (caps or nonCAPS).

2. do u know the difference between a metonymy n a simile? r u arguing that one is a figure of speech n the other isn't? what r u implying abt the Incarnation--that it went beyond the human species into the animal?

o the new heresies that KJBOism spawns as it goes!

 

word_digger made the following irrelevant observation:

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. (2 Peter 1:18 NIV)

</font>

1. It was Askjo, not me, who claimed a difference between a capitalized metaphor and a non-capitalized one. I was merely pointing out his double standard by throwing his own argument in his face. Throwing it back at me refutes no point that I have made.</font>
2. You still haven't told us why a metaphor can only ever apply to one single person. Until you establish that rule, any argument about the NIV confusing Jesus and Satan is null and void, period.</font>

Finally, God says in Hosea 5:14: "I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah" (KJV). Now we're back to the KJV confusing Yahweh and Satan again.

So . . . you were saying?

. . .
. . . .
. . . .
. . .

[ September 29, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Ransom ]