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God desires for ALL to be saved!

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Apr 30, 2003.

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  1. William C

    William C New Member

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    Some Calvinists argue this verse is in reference to the elect alone. But look at the context. Peter is speaking about Christ's promise to return to earth and his "delay." Why would he need to delay and be patient with those who have already repented? He must be refering to those who have not yet repented.

    Calvinists might argue that he is speaking about the elect who have not repented, but certainly will once God regenrates them. If this is the case why would God need to be patient with them, He is just waiting on Himself, not them.??????

    The point Peter is obviously making from the context of this passage and his reference to Noah and the Ark is that God is longsuffering and patient with obstinate people and He is waiting and longing for them to come to Him in repentance.

     
    #1 William C, Apr 30, 2003
  2. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Which Bro. Bill are you?? :D

    three posts verbatim? All within two minutes. Give your keyboard some rest brother, it is starting to believe your theology ;)

    Now I am confused :confused:

    God Bless.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #2 Frogman, Apr 30, 2003
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Not all of those given to Jesus by His Father would have even been born at the time the Holy Spirit had Peter write that epistle.
     
    #3 KenH, Apr 30, 2003
  4. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    One question Brother Bill... I don't see eternal salvation in the statements mentioned but a timely one... From the KJV the end of the verse says... Wherefore turn yourselves and live ye!

    If they are physically dead how can they turn?... Is death is the scriptures always a physical one and salvation or saving only in an eternal sense?... If scripture contradicts itself or another how can there be harmony in scripture?

    Does my living the word get me to heaven or does it enable me to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus in the here and now?... The OT was the Law... The NT is Grace!... How do you come to that knowledge of the truth did you bring yourself or did someone else bring you?

    The scripture also say... Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints... Looks to me like the Lord has pleasure when one of his children cast off this mortal flesh and join him in glory... They have ceased from their labors... Have they ever ceased to be his children?... I have loved thee with and everlasting love... And with loving kindness have I drawn thee!... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
    #4 tyndale1946, Apr 30, 2003
  5. William C

    William C New Member

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    Not all of those given to Jesus by His Father would have even been born at the time the Holy Spirit had Peter write that epistle. </font>[/QUOTE]The verse says, "He is patient with YOU." Are you trying to say that "you" in this verse are those elect who had not yet been born?

    That makes this letter seem a bit out of context, don't you think?

    And Ken, there is more than just that one verse to deal with if you want to try and prove that God really doesn't want all men to be saved.
     
    #5 William C, Apr 30, 2003
  6. William C

    William C New Member

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    I don't believe scripture does contradict itself. I believe it contradicts the Calvinistic interpretation of other texts.

    God desires all mankind to be saved. PERIOD.

    Someone else brought me. I was not born knowing it.

    I'm not sure what passage you are referring to here. Could you point it out to me. Thanks.

    Certainly, if one has come to repentance and faith, I could see how their death would be a celebration, but that in no way changes God's desire for all to be saved.
     
    #6 William C, Apr 30, 2003
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    If God desires for ALL mankind to be saved... Since he is God... He speaks and it is commands and it stands fast... His word shall not return unto him again void but shall accomplish all that he send it to do!... Would not God desire make it so... Or would the rejection of men make it not so?

    Does not the Potter have power over the clay... Or does the clay shape itself?... Notice also it is the same lump that is fitted for destruction and honor?... Who fitted it and when did it happen?... God will save those Christ came to save and no one else!... If it is ALL of mankind then is not ALL of mankind saved?... Since none are better than the rest how do they qualify?

    I will say what I have been saying on here since I joined this board... God WILL save all his children just like he promised he would... While I wait for this promise to me... I serve my God and my fellow man and don't worry about anothers Eternal Salvation... They are in Gods hands and that is ALL the Primitive Baptist preach!... For me to live is Christ... And to die is gain!... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
    #7 tyndale1946, Apr 30, 2003
  8. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Bill,

    I haven't posted to you in a while....How have you been? Well, I hope.

    You write God desires all mankind to be saved. PERIOD.

    However, Psalm 115:3 says: "But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases." (NASB)

    If, as you suggest, God desires all mankind to be saved, why is that not accomplished?

    There are a couple of possibilities:

    1. He is impotent. (This is the view somewhat espoused by the Open Theist Heresy) We must, if we are to be Biblical, dismiss this completely.

    2. Universalism is true (All will be saved). This must be dismissed. The Bible speaks of sheep and goats, life and death, heaven and hell. Obviously, not everyone will be saved.

    3. There are two distinct wills working within God. SEE:John Piper--Are there 2 wills in God?

    Please read the link (I think it is a chapter from his book Desiring God). I would choose to quote Piper at length. However, I am concerned about breaking the Desiring God website's copy-right wishes.

    Again, the over-arching question is, in light of Psalm 115:3--Why, if God wills that all should be saved, does He not accomplish that?

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
    #8 The Archangel, Apr 30, 2003
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    1)Yes. Peter can only address the living elect he was writing to. "You" refers to a class of people - God's elect.

    In the context of the epistle, the Christians to whom Peter wrote were suffering hardship for the name of Christ and were looking for the ultimate relief provided in the second coming of Him. Peter was telling them that until the entirety of God's salvation plan for this age was finished(the gathering in of all those whom the Father had given to the Son back in eternity), God would remain patient in spite of the persecution that Christians were suffering and not abort His plan, for to do so would be to fail to deliver all of those to His Son whom He had given to Him.

    2)Yes, Bill, there are plenty of verses that both Arminians and Calvinists must work overtime on to prove their theology is Biblically sound. [​IMG]
     
    #9 KenH, Apr 30, 2003
  10. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    What does one make of this passage?

    "
    Ezekiel 33:11
    Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

    The Hebrew word for "pleasure", is "chaphets", which can also mean "delight, desire, will"

    Who is Gos here speaking of, is it only His elect? But, what does God say of His people, the elect elsewhere? "Psalm 106
    40 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance"

    What of the elect then?
     
    #10 aa0310, Apr 30, 2003
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Israel was chosen as a nation for the purpose of receiving the Law of Moses. Obviously, not all of them were saved. That is a difference with the church. Everyone added by God to the church(not some man-made membership role) is saved.
     
    #11 KenH, Apr 30, 2003
  12. William C

    William C New Member

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    Glen, I think you are just speculating instead of dealing with these texts that clearly say that God does desire and even longs for the salvation of all mankind.

    What are you speculating?

    That God always gets what he desires. That is not true. Does He desire for all to be Holy? Yes. He says, "Be Holy because I am Holy." Did he desire for Cain to kill Abel? No, but it happened. God's desires and his sovereign will are two different things that must be dealt with separately. Calvinists make the mistake of placing the salvation of each individual under God's Soverign will instead of under his desired or what is called His "premissive" will (those things which he "permits" for others to do or not to do).

    I believe God sovereignly willed that each man choose whom he would serve and that each man would be held accountable for that choice.

    You believe that God soverignly willed that certain men would be saved and others would not. That is inconsistant with the biblical account.

    Yes, and the scripture clearly says that Christ came to save the "world," "the lost," and "all." You translate those to mean "elect in the world", "the lost elect" and "all of the elect." To bad for you that the Bible doesn't say that, you have to supply it yourself.

    I know you would like to believe that if God desired to save someone and someone didn't want to be saved that God's desire would over power the lost man's desire, but that is not what the whole counsel of God's Word teaches.

    God stands at the door and knocks. (I know this is not about being saved but it shows that God can make his desire subject to man's choice.)

    Matt 23:37 clearly shows that God longed to do that which they were not willing to do, therefore it was not done.

    Again, this shows, if God chooses to allow man a choice that His desire becomes subject to their choice. He is still the Sovereign one because they only have the choice by his giving it to them, nevertheless, it is a geniune choice.

    We probably shouldn't "worry" about anything, but take everything to God in prayer. But it sure sounds like Paul hurt for the lost and longed for the lost to come to Christ. Especially those from his country. I hurt and long for all the lost to come to Christ and I geniunely believe that all of them can come. I know Calvinist's claim to believe the same thing, but if you are truly honest you will admit it takes away the urgency of evangelism.
     
    #12 William C, Apr 30, 2003
  13. William C

    William C New Member

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    Angel, I'm doing well, I was out of town a couple of days. It's good to hear from you. [​IMG]

    What if it pleases God to have man worship him and serve him by his own choice instead of making them worship and obey by the Irresistable force of His Holy Spirit? You forget that God can sovereignly will that man has a choice in salvation. That very well could be what pleases God.

    In fact, John said that God could make the stones cry out to Him if he so desired, but God doesn't want stones to worship Him. He wants people to choose Him and to love him from their own free will, not an irresistable force.

    Because some are unwilling (Matt. 23:37)

    Does God desire you to be a perfectly holy man? Are you always perfectly holy? Why is that not accomplished?

    God has a permissive will, which are those things that God take pleasure in or that he desires, but may or may not happen since he permits others to make a choice.

    The commandments are perfect examples of this.

    I agree this must be dismissed.

    I agree this too should be dismissed.

    Honestly, I haven't had time to read the article yet, but I will. I have read "Desiring God" by Piper several years ago and I'm fimiliar with this arguement. But unless you believe that God desires evil and sin then you must believe that God has differening parts of His will.

    For example, I as a father hate to spank my children. Did I spank them? Yes. It was not desirable but it was my choice. So too, God can do things or allow for others to do things that He does not find pleasurable or desirable.

    God Bless.
     
    #13 William C, Apr 30, 2003
  14. William C

    William C New Member

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    Ken, the verse doesn't say that God is being patient with the persecution of the Christians or with those doing the persecution, it says, "God is patient with YOU."

    You say that "YOU" is the elect, but that makes no sense because what is God waiting for in your system? He is waiting for them to be regenrated to that they will believe and be saved.

    If you were correct this verse would read, "God is patient with Himself." This is silly. [​IMG]

    Well, get to work. [​IMG]

    I have fully answered every verse that any Calvinists has brought to my attention. I realize that you may not have agreed with my translation, but nevertheless I have always provided one. It's your turn.
     
    #14 William C, Apr 30, 2003
  15. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Brother Bill... I think you misunderstand Paul!

    Romans 10:[1] Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    [2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

    [3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    No where in here does it say they have a zeal of the devil... They have a zeal of God but not according to knowledge!... Paul is stating to all who will listen these are Gods blood bought children but they are ignorant... Just like he was ignorant on the road to Damascus before he was brought to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

    Why try to read something in the scriptures that are not there? You will NEVER hear a Primitive Baptist preacher... Preach these brethren were lost worlds without end... They were lost to the truth only and in error but NEVER lost in the covenant works of Almighty God... They were disobedient children holding on to their law worship and bondage... Ignorant that Jesus Christ has made them free men... Romans 9, 10, and 11 teaches nothing else!... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
    #15 tyndale1946, Apr 30, 2003
  16. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Glen,

    If you will go back to to Romans 2 you will find that Paul states that those of Israel who do not do God's will are doomed to destruction.
     
    #16 Eladar, Apr 30, 2003
  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Romans 2:29 Is the key to the whole chapter... The Jews held onto that Law worship and that is the reason they were destroyed... But were they destoyed in an eternal sense?... To each his own!... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
    #17 tyndale1946, Apr 30, 2003
  18. William C

    William C New Member

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    Archangel,

    I do wish Piper were on this board to discuss these issues. I came to believe Calvinism from reading the likes of Piper, Spoul, MacArthur and others. Because of this I sometimes wrongly assume that Calvinists on this board believe as they do. Apprently most do not, which is why I started this thread. I'm trying to show exactly what Piper affirms in his article. Maybe he can convince these mislead Calvinists that God truly desires all to be saved, I obviously can't. [​IMG]

    John Piper and I agree that God desires to save all. Once we affirm that we can move on to the meater matters of this truth, unfortunately on this board I always seemed to get sucked back into discussing things that I assumed we agreed upon. That's frustrating. :(

    Here is the part of Piper's article that I disagree with:

    That is true, but we don't only have these texts. We also have Matt. 23:37 which clearly tells us "what restrains God from saving all" ........"THEY WERE UNWILLING."

    It doesn't say because "God was unwilling" or "because God Hardened them." It tells us exactly why God's desire wasn't accomplished.

    The examples of the two wills of God that Piper gives are all explained very convincingly and it is quite clear as to why God might "decree" one thing and "desire" another. For example, God might not desire the perishing of his son, but he might decree it anyway because his purpose of salvation would be accomplish. There is a good, logic reason for why God desire and his decree doesn't match up. The same is true with all of the examples he gives.

    The problem is that he never provides a reason why God would express his desire for all to be saved within the Calvinistic system.

    We all can clearly see why God's desire not to see his son die would be trumped by his desire to save the world, but their is no biblical reason that God would express his desire for all to be saved when he chose not to provide the means for all to be saved.

    He alludes to Romans 9 but that is not about God choice to save some and condemn others, it is about God's choice to show some mercy and harden others. There is a big difference. Those who are hardened are also shown mercy as we can see later in chapter 11, so this can't be applied.

    He also points to the fact that we can't boast, but Pauls reference to boasting is clearly in rebuttal to those who believed in salvation by works (Rom. 3:27-41). Not those who, like us, believe that salvation comes through faith.
     
    #18 William C, Apr 30, 2003
  19. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    I'm sorry, I guess I should have been more specific.

    Romans 2:9-11

    There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

    Jews are not exempt from the judgement of God. Gentiles are not exempt from the redemption of God. God shows no partiality.

    Here is something Jesus said about certain Jews who were strict followers of the Law:

    Matthew 15:1-14

    Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.' "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God," he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:

    'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
    BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

    'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
    TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"
    After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, "Hear and understand. "It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man." Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?" But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

    Following the letter of the Law without following the heart of the law has always been meaningless. This message is throughout the Bible: Without love, everything else is meaningless.
     
    #19 Eladar, Apr 30, 2003
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "The Jews held onto that Law worship"??

    Romans 2 is not discussing "Law Worship" in fact there is no phrase at all in Romans 2 about "worshipping the Law".

    Instead what we find in Romans 2 is "CONTRAST LANGUAGE" - contrasting "Obedience vs rebellion" to the point that Paul states in Romans 2:11-13 that "It is NOT the hearers of the Law that will be JUSTIFIED but the doers of the Law WILL be justified".

    Then in 2:15-16 Paul gives one example of a succeeding case where the law is SHOWN to be "Written on the heart" - (New Covenant).

    In the entire chapter obedience is seen to "RESULT" in eternal life and blessing while rebellion is seen to "RESULT" in destruction and wrath.

    This is an entire chapter devoted to that topic - impossible to miss.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #20 BobRyan, May 1, 2003
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