God desires for ALL to be saved!

Who, then, is "Jerusalem"? It is assumed by Arminian writers that "Jerusalem" represents individual Jews who are, therefore, capable of resisting the work and will of Christ. But upon what warrant do we leap from "Jerusalem" to individual Jews? The context would not lead us to conclude that this is to be taken in a universal sense. Jesus is condemning the Jewish leaders, and it is to them that He refers here. This is clearly seen in that:
1. It is to the leaders that God sent the prophets;
2. It was the Jewish leaders who killed the prophets and those sent to them;
3. Jesus speaks of "your children," differentiating those to whom He is speaking from those that the Lord desired to gather together.
4. The context refers to the Jewish leaders, scribes and Pharisees.
A vitally important point to make here is that the ones the Lord desired to gather are not the ones who "were not willing"! Jesus speaks to the leaders about their children that they, the leaders, would not allow Him to "gather". Jesus was not seeking to gather the leaders, but their children. This one consideration alone renders the passage useless for the Arminian seeking to establish freewillism. The "children" of the leaders would be Jews who were hindered by the Jewish leaders from hearing Christ. The "you would not" then is referring to the same men indicated by the context: the Jewish leaders who "were unwilling" to allow those under their authority to hear the proclamation of the Christ. This verse, then, is speaking to the same issues raised in Matthew 23:13.

Thank you

Pardi

 

Jesus is Condemning the entire Jewish nation as we see in Matt 23 - He pronounces the Curse of 1Kings 9 regarding national rebellion and national judgment.

As we see in Romans 11 - it is the nation that is cast out of "the plan" - and the nation that is accused of national apostacy.

However the more "devastating" problem for Calvinism is the "WILL" of God vs the WILL of the nation "How I WANTED to gather your children...BUT YOU Would Not".

In Christ,

Bob

 

With all the respect I have....1) you have either not read my previous note, or 2) you have read it but ignored it completely, or 3) you plan to go around in circles regardless what Scripture says....

I still love you though

Felix

 

Jerusalem is a figure for the entire nation of Israel - as already stated.

The nation (as it turns out) is composed of people, and people (as it turns out) are born one person at a time.

When the nation is rejected as the "ONE True Church" as the curse of 1Kings 9 predicts will be the result of PEOPLE in rebellion - People that are members of that nation - then it is the PEOPLE that suffer.

Just as it is PEOPLE that were "affected" in 70 AD.

This is "not the hard part".

Again - you pretend to be confused by the fact that PEOPLE comprise the nation. I have yet to read from your posts - what is so confusing about that fact.

As in the case of the trial of Christ and the stoning of Stephen - it CAN NOT be shown that ONLY elected leaders took part. There is no question that the term "Nation" INCLUDES PEOPLE that were leaders - but there is NO indication that it EXCLUDED everyone else.

And "The Point" of Matt 23 was to SHOW the clash of wills "HOW I WANTED" says God. And then "BUT YOU WOULD not" is the opposing argument.

Not that ALL leaders in Israel in every age were bad - but that the Nation had now "taken a turn" from which it was UNWILLING to turn back.

Hence Christ weeps over the nation of Israel. And the real events, the real doom that will happen to real people - not just "leaders".

Wrong. There is no "other nation" that is the "child of the nation of Israel".

Christ "shows" that it is Jews that killed the prophets and it is Jews that he longed to save.

He "shows" that HE wanted one thing but ISRAEL - Jerusalem - the object of His desire "Would not".

There is no support in all of scripture that the "CHILDREN of Israel" are not the "CHildren of Jerusalem" nor is there any support that the "Children of Jerusalem" are not Jews, are not ALL the people of Jerusalem.

God never had a "plan" for sending in Romans to "just kill the non-elect" in Israel, where He could argue "That was ok - but I was worried that I might have to send Romans who would kill BOTH the elect and the non-elect".

Your argument fails.

 

The persons whom Christ would have gathered are not represented as being unwilling to be gathered; but their rulers were not willing that they should. The opposition and resistance to the will of Christ, were not made by the people, but by their governors. The common people seemed inclined to attend the ministry of Christ, as appears from the vast crowds which, at different times and places, followed him; but the chief priests and rulers did all they could to hinder the collection of them to him; and their belief in him as the Messiah, by traducing his character, miracles, and doctrines, and by passing an act that whosoever confessed him should be put out of the synagogue; so that the obvious meaning of the text is the same with that of verse 13...and consequently is no proof of men's resisting the operations of the Spirit and grace of God, but of obstructions and discouragments throuwn in the way of attendance on the external ministry of the word.

 

Bob you wrote: Imagine what you would do if you were free to just read the text as it is written and accept the unqualified statements without having to restrict the Love of God to "some parts of all kinds of mankind" as if such a text existed.

GH: I agree. IMO, it is unbelief to think that God is not capable of reconciling ALL to Himself. But I do understand that the traditions of men have re-interpreted God's power. Gos is weak is being proclaimed today. The scriptures have been twisted and turned so that what God has really said in faith, hope and love have made His word to be of no effect. - (from a friend of mine on another board). ALL or SOME:

The New Staggering Unbelief Bible

1 Cor. 15:22

"For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power."

Rev. 5:13

"And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power unto the ages of the ages."

Col. 1:18-20

"He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme.

For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell.

And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated..."

Acts 3:20,21

"And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)"

1 Cor. 15:28

"And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some."

1 Cor. 15:25,27

"For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet...For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him."

Romans 11:32

"For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some."

Eph. 4:10

"Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence."

John 5:28

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

1 Timothy 2:4

"For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2:6

"For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time."

Cor. 5:15

"For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life."

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)....some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

"The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God's displeasure hangs over him continually."

Gal. 3:20

"But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him."

Heb. 1:2

"God...hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)"

2 Cor. 5:14

"For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for us and has risen again."

Heb.8:11

"And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness..."

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

"For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end." (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

Eph. 4:6

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some."

Heb. 12:23

"To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect."

James 2:10

"For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some."

Romans 3:22,23

"..the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. ...For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour."

John 17:2

"As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonial life to as many as thou hast given him."

Romans 9:5

"The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages."

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people's conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance."

"In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees of worshippers will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld." Phil. 2:10-11

 

I hope the following will be somewhat informative:

Rom 8:31-34. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

In the above verse, Calvinists believe that 'us' and 'us all' means the elect only. Arminians however - if they are consistent - must look at the 'us' referring to all mankind when it speaks to deliverence (since God "delivered Him over for us all" - meaning all mankind), however they interpret the last reference of 'us' to mean believers only (since only believers are partakers of 'all things, freely given to us').
Scripture reports, you decide.

Heb 7:25. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them

Calvinists believe that Christ is making intercession right now for the elect and for the elect only. Arminians interpret 'them' to refer to all mankind, since Christ draws everybody and intercedes for everybody.
Scripture reports, you decide.

Heb 9:12. and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Calvinists believe that Christ at the Cross forever 'obtained eternal redemption' for the elect only. Arminians believe that 'having obtained' does not realy mean what it says; it means 'made salvation possible'.
Scripture reports, you decide.

Heb 10:14. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Calvinists believe that Christ HAS forever perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Arminians believe that Christ WILL perfect all those who are sanctified upon condition that they believe.
Scripture reports, you decide.

Matt 1:21. "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Calvinists believe that Christ WILL certainly save His people (the elect) from their sins. Arminians believe that He will not make the salvation of His people certain, He just makes it obtainable upon their belief.
Scripture reports, you decide.

Luke 19:10. "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Calvinists believe that this verse means exactly what it says. Arminians believe that the Son of Man has come to seek all mankind and not to save, but make salvation possible for that which was lost.
Scripture reports, you decide.

Isa 53:11. As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

Calvinists believe that Christ justified the many (the elect) and bear their sins only. Arminians have to break this verse in two, saying that Christ justifies the believer (elect), but that He was bearing the sins of ALL mankind.
Scripture reports, you decide.

You see, it is foolish to believe that Calvinists interpret ALL occurences of 'ALL' to mean 'SOME'. Arminians on the same token interpret 'MANY' to mean 'ALL'.

P.S. These are just a few examples. The list can go on and on...

Just a thought. Thanks

Felix

 

You see, it is foolish to believe that Calvinists interpret ALL occurences of 'ALL' to mean 'SOME'. Arminians on the same token interpret 'MANY' to mean 'ALL'.

Hi Felix,

I was being facetious with this post, brother. My opinion is that both the C' and the A's have it wrong.

Almighty God is MORE than able to do MORE than we could ever ask or imagine.

Can we imagine or ask for the reconciliation of all since God is not counting men's sins against them?

Scripture reports, IT'S ALREADY DECIDED. Let's now love one another as Christ has loved us.....and go and tell the Good News, the glad tidings to all men.

In Christ, Di

 

The Problem is GH

Many is a nebulous thing

What if from now on EVERY SINGLE PERSON born was saved - it would still not be ALL - in that instance

because there are people in the past who are in hell

-------------------------------------------------

as to the leaders or people themselves - the point is that somebody's will other then God's or Satan's is blocking God's desire from happening immediately

 

If Christ died for all, that would include "us" (the elect), so there is no reason to try to force "us all"=all mankind into the mough of the Arminians.

Same thing, except I've never heard anybody say that He intercedes for everybody (i.e. even those not believing now).

"Make possible" is irrevalent, and just a tool to try and dismiss the non-Calvinist position. When someone is saved, their redemption is forever obtained. That is what caounts here. Our problem is how this all works out in time, so that is why it seems only "possible"; just like nobody can know who will be elect, so everyone is then only "potentially" savable.

So are those who do not yet believe perfected or even sanctified yet? No, as this is done in time, it is true that Christ WILL perfect when they believe.

once again, "all" includes "many", so while this is saying that all who are justified had their sins borne, it is not saying anything about those who will not be justified, let alone whether their sins were borne or not.

Yeah, that's what people are doing all right. Scripture says something, and the person decides what it means by reading something into it. This is to theology what the FOX news empire is to politics/journalism.

 

Hi Sularis,

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. 19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the MANY shall be constituted just.

How MANY are included in the MANY that were constituted sinners under Adam's one act of disobedience?

Would THAT "MANY" be ALL to you? Or does it include only SOME?

MANY (ALL) MADE SINNERS BY ONE ACT OF DISOBEDIENCE

MANY (ALL) MADE RIGHTEOUS BY JESUS CHRIST

But far greater is the gift than was the transgression. For if through the offence of one many be dead, MUCH MORE the grace of God, and the gift of grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Ya see what I'm saying here? How come when it comes to sin many means all, but when it comes to righteousness many means many (or some)?

Peace, GH

"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Eternal as the ocean-bed is full of water." Isa. 11:9

 

Actually logic would dictate that the manys in that passage have to be equal or that the many involving righteousness would have to be greater

The problem is the translation

but thats ok - was Adam "made" a sinner
was "eve" made a sinner?

but was Adam later "made" righteous?

Take even one person out and the many cannot be all

Oh I believe ALL have the opportunity to be saved
but not ALL will

Also -
Lets look at KJV

5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Note that righteousness is applied to all - but somehow not all are saved

Remember there were sinless humans born

Jesus, Adam - All minus 2 equals Many

Im jumping over the map here but the point is the many in Romans in 5:19 is NOT all - neither of them


But simply put, Free Choice GH - Man's Choice

Grace can crush all sin - but would man accept it
even Christians refuse to accept certain blessings, and thus miss out

 

Gal 3:28. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Col 3:11. "a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all."

The above two verses are key in understanding Paul's usage of 'ALL' and 'MANY' and 'US' and such like. And yes, context will determine how the apostle intended to use these words.

The same is the case with John's usage of the 'world'. Only one verse in the Gospel of John will show us that the word 'world' can mean three different things. Exegesis is a hard sport but worth the study!!

In a Jewish mind it seemed hard to understand how God can deal with the gentile nations. Paul is trying to show the Jewish believers that in Christ there is no more distinction. ALL believers are ONE in Christ. Paul had to open their minds that God wanted ALL kinds of people (Jewish, Gentile, circumcised, barbarian, slave, free, etc...) to be saved and not just the Jews. That is the meaning of that verse.

In Christ

Felix