Unconditional Election And the Invincible Purpose of God

What noble purpose would God have in blinding billions of souls so that at the hour of death they might step off into the horrendous, surprise of Hell. I believe God the Spirit calls human beings toward the experience of Him opening their ' . . . eyes of understanding.' [Ephesians 1:18] This can never happen, however, except through their reliance on His spiritual benefits accomplished on the Cross. God speaking through the Apostle Paul says, 'Wherefore I also, after I heard of YOUR FAITH in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, cease not to give thanks for you . . . ' [Ephesians 1:15]. (Notice not an alleged faith given as a free gift from God) [Ephesians 2:8]

 

Since Paul tells us that those who are called are justified and then glorified, on what basis do any souls step off into the surprise of hell? Are you acknowledging the existence of a call that is different than the one in Rom 8:29?? (I am not going to let you off here Ray; you have a contradiction with Scripture that you need to answer).

No one here is disputing that it is an individual's faith that is necessayr for salvation. Phil 1:29 and other passages clearly tell us that "our faith" came as a gift from God (Eph 2:8 ... as you say).

Again, you need to focus on the things that are different. We both believe in the necessity of faith (except the PBs).

 

In response to an ongoing discussion between Yelsew, Latreia, and Pastor Larry to the question:

Choice. The Holy Spirit convicts (convinces) the individual of truth. The individual then chooses to accept or reject. Choice and conviction is linear. I.e., one's choice does not stop the Divine action of conviction nor does a rejection of conviction stop conviction itself.

Romans 1:18-32.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but the only way non-Calvinism attempts to address the very real phenomenon that the majority of the human race has not been exposed to the Gospel is to conclude that God is not fully sovereign because although He wills all men to be saved, He cannot even give all men a fair chance, or that man can somehow find salvation without the Gospel?

Isn't it one of those two?

 

Travelsong,

I too, don't have all the answers the the questions.

I believe even the billions who have never heard the Gospel are under His sovereign care and governance. It is our ministry to reach as many people as we can with His peace and forgiveness. Perhaps those who never find Christ or are not found by Him will be judged less harshly than those who have repeatedly hear the Gospel. Jesus speaks of those who will 'receive the greater damnation.' Hopefully, their condition in the place of destruction will be less painful than those who have been Christ rejectors for decades while on earth.

 

Ray, the question was does God want all souls to be saved? If so, why do not all have a fair "chance." According to you, it is not God's will for ANY to go to hell and receive any kind of damnation, whether lesser or greater. You made it seem as though it is God's will for none to get to the greater damnation, but they can get the lesser and it's all good. You can't just stay in the middle like that. Either God is an underacheiver and cannot fulfill redemption by getting the gospel out or either you must affirm, like us, that it is not God's will for all to be saved. I think the former would be rediculous, so I affirm the latter.

 

Perhaps part of the problem is the premise itself. I'm assuming the suggestion is that an indvidual must "hear the Gospel" (i.e. it must be preached to them) in order to be born again. If I'm correct in this assumption, may I ask why you believe this? Is God unable to convict individuals of their need for Him apart from "the preached Word"? IMO, "the preached Word" is for declarations of matters much more mature than the necessity of being born again. In other words, God can and does convict those who may have never opened up a Bible or even heard someone preach from it.

Romans 1:18-32.

 

Calling Almighty God an Underachiever appears to me to be clearly sacrilegious. We never want to cast bad light on Him as not being infinite in His omniscience. God has provided salvation for everyone and places ultimate responsibility on us as human beings. There is but one call of the holy Gospel to humans. Those who believe are saved; the rest will be forever lost.

We were considering the many millions who never have heard the Gospel. Will God treat them the same as the perpetual Christ rejector. Maybe your glitch is you hate to admit that some can repel the claims of the Gospel; it doesn't neatly fit into the concept of Calvinism.

In Matthew 23:13-14 Jesus makes a prognosis of the future for the religious as to their damnation. Because they 'shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men,' making it nearly impossible for the general public to believe in Jesus, they will receive a greater punishment in Hell and finally in the Lake of fire. This is also documented in two other Gospels namely: Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47.

Contrasting the above religious Pharisees with those who never have heard the Gospel might indicate that the Hindu and Buddist and all other pagans might not be judged by God as severely as these false, world religions.

What do you think?

 

Ray Berrian,

I'm not sure if you're last post was directed to me or not, but if it was, here's a response.

First, we're not on the same page regarding the subject illustrated in the phrase from your post "We were considering the many millions who never have heard the Gospel". I don't believe they're are millions that have never heard the Gospel. This is due to my view of the Gospel itself as well as what is necessary to be born again. Second, I'm not Calvinist so my previous post may read differently to you now that I've stated that.

 

God did NOT send His Son into the world to provide a "chance" for eternal salvation. Salvation is not according to chance, but according to the purpose of God (Romans 8:28; 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 1:11). To read Ephesians 1 and come to any other conclusion but that salvation is according to the design and purpose of God, you would have to purposely misinterpret the text. In other words, Christ made an atonement for sin, and the ultimate responsibility for carrying out this plan of redemption is left to man to dispose of it in whatever way he sees fit? That is frightening. Psalms 49:8 states that the redemption of our souls is precious. The Bible teaches in Job 15:15, "Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight." I hope you are not trying to convince me that God put the responsibility of the redemption of one's soul which is precious in the hands of saints He doesn't even trust. Thanks, but no thanks. That makes no sense! Those who knew the will of God but rejected it, they will be beaten with many stripes. Perhaps those who never hear the preaching of the gospel will not receive the "greater damnation." However, man is ultimately responsible to God. All men are commanded to repent. Elder Sylvester Hassell believed that because man has rendered HIMSELF incapable of receiving the things of the Spirit of God, it in no way implies that our responsibility to God is made void. "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but THEY have sought out many inventions." (Ecclesiastes 7:29)

[ January 17, 2003, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

Primitive Baptist,

I do agree with you that God has always had a purpose and design behind the gift of salvation. The problem is some people believe that they obtain salvation while in a neutral position. God's gift of salvation is extended to sinners as a free gift. One must receive it trustingly in order to experience it. [Ephesians 2:8-9]

Acts 16:31 reminds sinners to 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.' Believe is an action word that only the sinner can accomplish.

In the Greek the word for believed is {pistouson} and is in the [aorist active imperative tense] meaning, (there is a beginning time that you must believe and the active tense means that if a person has actually and truely believed he or she will continue to do so). This is a kind of proof that they are in the faith, if they continue to follow the Lord.

 

That may be your opinion, but it is one which contradicts clear verses to the contrary.

It does not say faith comes by hearing the word of God. It says faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of God. Not by man's decision to hear. Not by man's decision to have faith. But the ability to hear comes by the word of God.

Not the work of man. Not the will of man. Not the decision of man. The work of God.

Where are the verses that say that "believe" is an action word that only the sinner can accomplish? There are none. Zero. Zip. Nada. Goose-egg. So trust in your own wisdom if you like, but let's not pretend it's Biblical.

 

That may be your opinion, but it is one which contradicts clear verses to the contrary.

It does not say faith comes by hearing the word of God. It says faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of God. Not by man's decision to hear. Not by man's decision to have faith. But the ability to hear comes by the word of God.</font>[/QUOTE]Here you make a mistake. Paul is laying out the steps of coming to faith.
First one must hear, (what must one hear?) hearing comes by the Word of God (what does the word of God say?). Paul is not speaking of the auditory sense of hearing but rather the spiritual acceptance of the content of the Word of God. It is that content upon which one comes to faith and upon which faith grows. That is why we are instructed to "study to show thyself approved....". We are to take upon ourselves 'the Whole Armor of God', so that we may stand against the wiles of the devil. Note: We are not to sit by and let God dress us in the armor, we are to do the dressing and studying ourselves. God could have impressed his whole essence upon us, thus negating the need for study and arm ourselves. He is however allowing us to exercise our own free will to do that.

So let's look at what you say. You say that God created us then took away from us essentials that we need such as hearing, or that he never gave us hearing in the first place. So He, at our appointed time, installs in us the ability to hear. Then He tells us through our hearing that we can only believe what He tells us we can believe, and in fact he blocks all but what He gives us, and that we have no choice, therefore, human free will cannot exist. That is exactly what we humans do when we develop Robots! We program the robot with what we want the robot to do, we develop choices for the robot based upon specific stimuli, so that the robot looks intelligent, able to make "choices". Ever hear of Pavlov and his dog?

Not the work of man. Not the will of man. Not the decision of man. The work of God.</font>[/QUOTE]If that is God's work, why does God need to believe in God, or the one that God sent? The work of God is becoming as one of us so that we, by our own work or will, come to belief in Him. God's work is the creation, God's work is the restoration, our work is belief!

Here's one you may have heard of, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Here's a few more for your reference, in case you want to do a study
Bible: King James Version
Word or phrase: believe

(Matthew 9:28)
28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus
saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea,
Lord.
(Matthew 18:6)
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were
better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were
drowned in the depth of the sea.
(Matthew 21:25)
25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned
with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why
did ye not then believe him?
(Matthew 21:32)
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not:
but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it,
repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
(Matthew 24:23)
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it
not.
(Matthew 24:26)
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not
forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
(Matthew 27:42)
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him
now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
(Mark 1:15)
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent
ye, and believe the gospel.
(Mark 5:36)
36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of
the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
(Mark 9:23)
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him
that believeth.
(Mark 9:24)
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord,
I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
(Mark 9:42)
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is
better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast
into the sea.
(Mark 11:23)
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be
thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart,
but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall
have whatsoever he saith.
(Mark 11:24)
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe
that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
(Mark 11:31)
31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he
will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
(Mark 13:21)
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is
there; believe him not:
(Mark 15:32)
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and
believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
(Mark 16:17)
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast
out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(Luke 8:12)
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh
away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
(Luke 8:13)
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy;
and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation
fall away.
(Luke 8:50)
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and
she shall be made whole.
(Luke 22:67)
67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will
not believe:
(Luke 24:25)
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the
prophets have spoken:
(John 1:7)
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men
through him might believe.
(John 1:12)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name:
(John 3:12)
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe,
if I tell you of heavenly things?
(John 4:21)
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall
neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
(John 4:42)
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we
have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour
of the world.
(John 4:48)
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not
believe.
(John 5:38)
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye
believe not.
(John 5:44)
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the
honour that cometh from God only?
(John 5:47)
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
(John 6:29)
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe
on him whom he hath sent.
(John 6:30)
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see,
and believe thee? what dost thou work?
(John 6:36)
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
(John 6:64)
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning
who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
(John 6:69)
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living
God.
(John 7:5)
5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.
(John 7:39)
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should
receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet
glorified.)
(John 8:24)
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe
not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
(John 8:45)
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
(John 8:46)
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not
believe me?
(John 9:18)
18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and
received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his
sight.
(John 9:35)
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said
unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
(John 9:36)
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
(John 9:38)
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
(John 10:26)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
(John 10:37)
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
(John 10:38)
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know,
and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
(John 11:15)
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may
believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
(John 11:27)
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of
God, which should come into the world.
(John 11:40)
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe,
thou shouldest see the glory of God?
(John 11:42)
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand
by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
(John 11:48)
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall
come and take away both our place and nation.
(John 12:36)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of
light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
(John 12:39)
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
(John 12:47)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came
not to judge the world, but to save the world.
(John 13:19)
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe
that I am he.
(John 14:1)
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
(John 14:11)
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me
for the very works' sake.
(John 14:29)
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to
pass, ye might believe.
(John 16:9)
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
(John 16:30)
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man
should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
(John 16:31)
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
(John 17:20)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me
through their word;
(John 17:21)
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that
they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(John 19:35)
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that
he saith true, that ye might believe.
(John 20:25)
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he
said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put
my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will
not believe.
(John 20:31)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the
Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Nearly all of these point to the fact that it is up to man to believe!

 

Yelsew,

None of your chosen verses demonstrate that "believe" is an action word that only the sinner can accomplish. Many of them demonstrate that we should believe, or that we are required to believe. Many of them demonstrate that people do not believe. But none of them in any way contradict the clear verses that Jesus, not our free will, is the author of our faith, and that it is by the power of God that we believe.

You may see other meanings in your choice of scriptures, but those are interpretations you've put there. Unlike clear verses such as "Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith", your conclusions are in your head, not in the text.

 

When Jesus tells his listeners to believe, the "you believe" is implied. He is not saying "I instill belief in me in you" as you insist that he is. Jesus is not talking to himself but to his created being, man!

If "required to believe", but not possessing what it takes to believe until it is given, how can Jesus tell man to believe? That is, until the gift of believing is transferred from the giver to receiver, the receiver has no capability to do what the gift is given to enable.

Without human will in action, human belief in God is not possible! It is by being persuaded or convinced that the Word heard is true, that the human accepts and believes the truth. It is by persuasion that the gift of belief is instilled. Human belief itself is not the gift, it is the ability to hear and be persuaded by hearing that is the Gift! Virtually every human believes in something, and even non belief is belief.

 

For some Calvinists the sinner should just throw their lives into neutral and hope the might be one of the elect. Forget hearing the Gospel, believing, or trusting in Jesus. After all if He has decreed us to Heaven it does not depend on our faith or believe, lack of works or even produced works. A child reading the Bible would not believe this self-abandonment nor would a Christian theologian who is a scholar. Even the 'way-faring man' documented in the Bible would not miss the simplicity of Christ's Gospel.

 

Ray,

Once again you have managed to repeat an often answered misrepresentation. There has not been one person on this board who has argued for what you have said above. You have not offered anyone in print who has argued for this. This is what you would like for us to believe because it is a whole lot easier to answer than our Scripture is. However, it simply is not true. I have asked you many times to cease such misrepresentations. Deal with the truth, not with what you would like other people to believe.

 

Npetreley,

Let's use one of your choice verses.

I am sure that we both agree that salvation is the gift of God to a sinner and that no one can get to Heaven on his or her own merit. We depend on the merit of Christ accomplished for us on the Cross.

Hebrews 12:2 says, 'Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith . . . ' If God were trying to teach us the alleged truth of Calvinism He would have written God's Word this way. "Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of My faith."

Faith is a human beings response to the truth of the Gospel.

In case Calvinists thought there was a little 'wiggle-room' the writer of Hebrews in chapter two verse 9 says, that Jesus is ' . . . crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.' This is hardly a Scriptural backing for a select and highly favored saints called, the elect. There are elect souls but only because they have trusted in Christ and His atoning death.

As to Hebrews 2:9 Dr. Paul Enns said in his theology book, "The Moody Handbook of Theology" on page 120. 'Jesus took on humanity and suffered death on behalf of everyone.'

 

Why do you say that? If he is writing to fellow elect believers, he would have rightly said "our" which is what he said. But notice how is says that Jesus is the author of it. Why would he say "author" if your faith originated with you? It seems that this verse actually supports the position you deny.

Without question.

Perhaps now, after months of refusing, you will be willing to provide a scriptural reference to support your claim that election is the result of belief. As many times as I have asked you, you have never succeeded to produce even one place where election is said to be the result of belief. Why?

[ January 20, 2003, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Truth, again I say, Truth does not need wiggle-room... As for Dr. Enns, perhaps he also intended "Jesus took on humanity and suffered death on behalf of everyone [who believeth]..)