The Sinner's Viability

I suppose now that you are going to tell me that there is just a shred of goodness in man.

I tell you this, that the only reason Abimelech did what he did because of God.

There was nothing in Abimelech that allowed him to do as he did

 

Sure, there's a lot of good in man. Nearly every human does good in one form or another. Jesus even speaks of the inate goodness of evil fathers toward their children.

In discussions of good and evil, one must consider the definition of "good" as used in the bible to describe man's relationship with God. And for that, there is no question in my mind there is not one man that is "holy good", for all have sinned, and not one has the power to make one's self holy, which is the state of righteousness and of being "Justified" before the throne of God. All mankind is in need of a savior, and has one in Jesus if they believe in Him. That in no way means that man is totally depraved, but rather that man is not acceptable before Holy God, because man is unholy, or not holy because of sin.

So now, what constitutes Total Depravity?

Totally depraved must be a condition whereby any individual human or a human society is any one, or any combination of the following:
Totally corrupt,
Totally Wicked,
Totally perverted,
Totally evil,
Totally sinful,
Totally debased
Totally reprobate,
Totally degenerate
Totally dissolute
Totally profligate
Totally Licentious
Totally Lewd
or Totally immoral.

True, there are many men on the face of the earth that are of at least one of these conditions.

However, one would be totally incorrect to claim that every man walking this earth is totally depraved. All are sinners, but not all are totally depraved. Even so, there were whole societies including the people of the world during Noah's days, then there was Sodom and Gomorrah, and there is evidence indicating such for, Rome, and perhaps, Corinth, where depravity was the norm instead of a deviation. But at the same time in other places, there was little or no depravity, and depravity was a significant deviation from the norm.

 

Ray, prove that it is a real error.

Yelsew, I know this has been explained many time to you, but you still act like it has not been explained. Let me do it once more for you.

When we say that man is totally depraved, we are not saying that man cannot do anything that has the appearence of good. We are saying that there are always reasons he does it. What does scripture say regarding good things? Are they from above, or are they from man? God judges the motives as well as the action. Can man build a hospital? Yes, and good can result from it. That does not mean that man is good. It simply means that he did someting that good resulted in. But even that we must give credit to God. For EVERY GOOD AND PERFECT THING COMES FROM ABOVE. Man does good not because he wants to please God, but because he wants the applause of men, or because he wants to feel good or look good. Not because he loves the lord and wants to glorify him forever.

There is what we mean by total depravity, it is that man's will is not that he wants to bring glory to the creator, but that he wants to bring glory to himself in some way shape or form. This is totally perverted in the order of things, that one wants to glorify the created instead of the creator.

 

(John 6:63 KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

(John 6:64 KJV) But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

(John 6:65 KJV) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

Will you also ignore the context from which verses 63,64,and 65 are taken? Start with verse 22 and continue without break to vs 71. Jesus was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum. Speaking to the Religious leaders. After they had departed in a huff, he turned to his disciples and asked them if they were going to leave also. The priests were among God's elect, and they rejected God's own son. The parable of the workers (God's elect) who rejected the master's messengers seems to fit here. There were prophets and the Forerunner who were sent to prepare the way, and then finally there was the master's son who went, and the workers killed him. God's elect killed God's son. You could argue against that, but you'd be arguing against scripture! For He came unto his own (the elect) and his own received him not. Seems kind of like what you are doing!

 

Yelsew,

Jesus said that there is no one good except God.

 

Jesus said, even the evil father gives his children bread and not stones to eat. Giving bread is a good thing. Even the evil provide a "safe" place for their own to live. Even the evil do good. A good that is done is a good regardless of who does it!

You must define what you mean by "good"!

 

How did Jesus define it when He said that only God is good?

 

How do you define it?

 

Jesus said that only God is good. Therefore, "good" as defined by Jesus is to be perfect as God is perfect. That is why Jesus' perfect life is imputed to His people so they can stand before holy God as His people have no righteousness of their own. As Isaiah said all of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

This brief series of articles might be of interest:

~ gracEmail ~
Edward Fudge
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JESUS PLEASED GOD FOR YOU (1)


Did you ever stop to think, if you are a believer, that Jesus' perfectly obedient life was lived for you? That when God views you through Jesus your representative, he sees you as perfectly pleasing to himself? That is the astounding message of Hebrews 10:4-14.


* * *


The New Testament author of Hebrews says it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin (10:4). "Why is that?" we ask. Because animals, being amoral creatures, are incapable of offering God what he most desires from his human creatures -- an obedient human life, lived in right relationship to the Creator from first to last. If the Israelites had obeyed God in covenant loyalty, there would have been no sacrifices of bulls and goats. Animal sacrifices were remedial -- they were never God's first choice (1 Sam. 15:22; Psa. 51:16-17; Jer. 7:22-23).

The stringent physical qualifications required of a sacrificial animal symbolized the pure life that God had wanted from the person bringing the animal (Lev. 17:11-12). The ritual sprinkling, pouring or smearing of the slain animal's blood reminded the guilty person bringing the animal of the "wages of sin" which he actually deserved to receive (Lev. 4:6, 8; Rom. 6:23). Because the sacrificial animal represented the person who brought it, that individual ritually placed his hands on the animal's head and confessed his sins -- symbolically transferring his guilt to the animal that would take his place (Lev. 4:4). The sacrificial system thus provided a preview of Jesus Christ, the coming "Lamb of God" who would carry away in his own body the sin of the world (John 1:29, 36; 1 Pet. 2:24).

Jesus came into the world to give the Father his first choice, to provide what God had always wanted but had never received -- a life of perfect human obedience, a life lived fully in right relationship with God himself. So Hebrews 10:5-7 quotes Psalm 40:6-8 as if from the mouth of Jesus. "You do not prefer animal sacrifices," he says in effect to God, but "a BODY you prepared for me" -- a human body in which to live a fully obedient human life in right relationship with God. "I have come," says Jesus, "to DO YOUR WILL, O God." In verses 8-9, the author observes that the Psalm mentions two subjects. First he mentions animal sacrifices ("sacrifices and offerings"), then he mentions human obedience ("come to do your will"). Jesus "takes away the first" -- animal sacrifices -- "in order to establish the second" -- perfect human obedience, which was always God's first choice.


~ gracEmail ~
Edward Fudge
______________________________________

JESUS PLEASED GOD FOR YOU (2)


Did you ever stop to think, if you are a believer, that Jesus' perfectly obedient life was lived for you? That when God views you through Jesus your representative, he sees you as perfectly pleasing to himself? That is the astounding message of Hebrews 10:4-14.


* * *


Hebrews 10:10 is a gospel gem! The author has already told us that Jesus came to do God's will in a human body -- to offer God the living sacrifice of a sinless and obedient human life. Now he tells us that Jesus' obedience was for our benefit. "By this will" -- this life of perfect human obedience, this life lived fully in right relationship with God according to God's own wishes and desires -- "we have been sanctified [this 'religious' word means to be counted as holy, to be made presentable to a holy God], through the offering of the body of Jesus once for all."

The word "will" (Greek: thelema) in these verses means "desire" or pleasure." It is not the word (diatheke) for a "will and testament." The "first" and "second" things mentioned here do not refer to an old and a new law, system or covenant, but to the two subjects being discussed: "first" = animal sacrifices; "second" = faithful human obedience. Jesus lived completely according to God's desires, then offered his human body (in which he obeyed God) to God on the cross. And God accepted Jesus' perfect obedience as the present he had always wanted first from humanity but had never before received -- a human life lived wholly in right relationship with God, a faithful and obedient life from first to last.

Because Jesus represented us in all that he did -- in his perfect doing and in his perfect dying -- God relates to all who trust in Jesus based on the life-record of Jesus' faithful and obedient life. In Jesus' own historical life, God sees everything he ever wanted in human performance and character. And because Jesus represented all who trust in him, God counts us "holy" based on his perfectly-fulfilled "will" as lived out by Jesus our substitute and Savior.


~ gracEmail ~
Edward Fudge
______________________________________

JESUS PLEASED GOD FOR YOU (3)


Did you ever stop to think, if you are a believer, that Jesus' perfectly obedient life was lived for you? That when God views you through Jesus your representative, he sees you as perfectly pleasing to himself? That is the astounding message of Hebrews 10:4-14.


* * *


Above all else, in Hebrews (as in the Old Testament), a high priest is one who acts as a representative of all his people. God sees what the high priest does, and he regards it as done by all the people whom the high priest represents. The holy clothing or vestments of the Mosaic high priest from Aaron forward symbolize this truth. The high priest displayed 12 precious stones on his chest and shoulders, engraved with the names of the tribes of Israel (Ex. 28:9-12, 15-21, 28-29). Where he went, all Israel went -- in his person. What he did, his people did -- through his representation. When God accepted the high priest's offerings, he accepted the people whom the high priest represented.

Aaron and his successors also wore a turban with a golden plate on the front, inscribed with the words "Holy to the LORD" (Ex. 28:36-38). Since Aaron and all his descendants were also sinners like us, this was a symbolic or ceremonial holiness pointing to something else. That symbolic holiness was a preview of Jesus Christ, the high priest who was to come. Unlike Aaron and his descendants, Jesus is actually holy in his own life and character. Because Jesus (as high priest) represents all his people, his own holy life counts for all those whom he represents (Heb. 4:15; 7:26-28).

When we take Communion or Eucharist, we consume two elements, not one. These remind us that Jesus offered both his BODY (representing his faithful doing of God's wishes) and also his BLOOD (representing his perfect dying as the atonement for sin). When we eat the bread, we may thank God that Jesus Christ lived a life of perfect obedience -- in our stead and to our account -- and that by it God sees us as holy. When we drink the wine, we may thank God that Jesus Christ died the sinners' death -- in our stead and to our account -- and that by it God forgives all our sins. By Christ's sacrifice offered one time, we are made perfect for all time and eternity (Heb. 10:14). Hallelujah! What a Savior!

- from www.edwardfudge.com/gracemails/Jesus_pleased_God_for_you.html

 

So, we are to accept "among" to be equal to the same as that which an object is among? Can we see that used in a sentence?

Sort of like: "The cattle are among the trees."

Being interpreted, "The cattle are trees."

The children of Israel {God's elect} were brought out of Egypt, with a mixed multitude.

Paul said in Rom. 9, not all who are of Israel are of Israel, but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. vs. 8.

Bro. Dallas

 

Yelsew,

Oh Boy!

I don't think you have a correct idea of what total depravity is speaking about. Total Depravity does NOT mean that everyone is as bad as bad can be! No. Total Depravity means that every part of humanity is tainted with sin. A better term might be "All-pervasive Depravity." However, that really throws a monkey-wrench into the "T-U-L-I-P" acrostic!

Archangel

 

I don't think you have a correct idea of what total depravity is speaking about. Total Depravity does NOT mean that everyone is as bad as bad can be! No. Total Depravity means that every part of humanity is tainted with sin. A better term might be "All-pervasive Depravity." However, that really throws a monkey-wrench into the "T-U-L-I-P" acrostic!

Archangel </font>[/QUOTE]Archangel Your definition does little to clear up the situation. Now instead of Total Depravity being the sin condition of the people Paul was writing about-the Romans, who were known world wide for their depravity, we have the situation where every human ever born is totally depraved, meaning that they have no socially redeemable value, even though God made man in His image.

Are you saying then that man of his own power CAN hear the word, and Believe, and thus be regenerated and have eternal life? Keep in mind that the Word is the Living Word of God, and not some library book. If yes, then I guess I agree. If not, then you must keep trying.

 

John 6: 44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6: 65. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.

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