Who Did Jesus Come To Save?

Bob,

Jeremiah 29:13, in context, is speaking of the Jews at the end of the Babylonian captivity. James 4:8 is written to believers. Neither has anything to do with unbelievers looking for God. The Bible clearly teaches that anyone who wants to, can be saved. It's just that none of us want to until God draws us. Romans 3:11, "There is none that seeketh after God." John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the father which hath sent me draw him."

[ November 19, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: PastorGreg ]

 

I do not disagree with this statement. My disagreement comes when one asserts that not all men are drawn. I believe the Bible teaches that every man will, at some point in their life, have salvation made available to them.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (KJV)

Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. (KJV)

I've stated before, and tried to convey this in my prior posts, that there is a balance between the two that we do not understand. His ways are not our ways; His thoughts are not our thoughts. We can't understand God through our human experiences.

The balance to John 6:44 would be Matthew 11:28:
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (KJV)

Jesus wouldn't give this invitation to all if all didn't have the opportunity to come.

The balance to Romans 3:11 would be Matthew 6:33:
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (KJV)

Again, Jesus wouldn't command an impossible task.

 

Bob, let me explain the bridge thing.

Calvinist - God extends the bridge all the way across to save his elect (number known only to him, but still a minority). He actually will save all of his elect.

Arminianism - God extends the bridge halfway. Christ only provided the basis for salvation, but guaranteed it for no one in particular. If you say it is particular, that is the same as the calvinist, who believe in particular redemption.

I was not implying that you or anyone else here believes that you must "complete the bridge" so to speak to be saved.

 

Pastor Bob, I am going to try and accurately answer each concern/statement.

1. All me deal with the general call (what Romans 1 is about).

2. I used to think this also. A missionary asked me, "What about those who never know of the gospel?". Romans 10 teaches us that one must believe the gospel.

3. I don't think balance is the word you are looking for. Each verse loses the force of what it is saying by making it in submission to another verse. Each text has absolute, binding authority. I will explain later.

4. I can preach to 1,000 people to come unto Jesus if you are weary. The problem with the individual though is that he doesn't really know he is weary and heavy laden unless Christ reveals that.

5. Not so, the invitation is universal in scope. All who want to may come. Again, no one on their own ever wants to come. This has nothing to do with ability to come. No one wants to come. It is their nature to be at enmity with God.

6. There is no balance here. In Romans 3, Pauls quote David by saying that none will every seek the Lord.

Christ is telling people to put the Lordship of Christ in their life. He is addressing citizens of his kingdom. I don't think this is an evangelistic text.

7. I don't know about this one. God did command the Jews to perfectly keep the law, fully knowing that they couldn't do it.

These are just some thoughts. Right now, I actually favor the unlimited atonement view, but definitely see the merits of particular redemption.

 

John 3:16 states that Jesus came to save all who believe in him.

 

1. You'll have to provide Scriptures that differentiate between the "general call" and " the call." It is my opinion that such a belief undermines the character of God; His justice, His love, and His mercy.

2. I believe Romans 1 answers the question of "What about those who never know of the gospel?" I agree that Romans 10 teaches that one must believe the gospel to be saved, but I also believe verse 18, "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (KJV) I still submit that every man has an opportunity to trust Christ.

3. The answer is usually found somewhere between the extremes.

4. But God has "chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Cor 1:21
The truth communicated in preaching, along with the convicting agency of the Holy Spirit is sufficient to make this need apparent. Again, I believe that all men are made aware of thier need of a Savior.

5. I can't disagree but that is really not the point. The point is, I believe all men are given the invitation to come to Jesus. I do not believe gives some the ability to "want to," and not others.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come . And let him that heareth say, Come . And let him that is athirst come . And whosoever will , let him take the water of life freely. (KJV)

6. I believe that man's nature rebels against God and does not naturally seek Him. But, when he is visited by the "grace of God that bringeth salvation" that is promised to appear to all men, this same man has a choice to accept Christ or reject Him. If they reject Him, their "foolish heart" will be darkened. Rom 1:21

 

Spurgeon was right: we don't need to reconcile free will and God's electing sovereignty because they aren't at odds. Both sides are true. To fail to believe in one or the other is to fail to believe God's Word. Salvation is of God, not of us.

 

Sorry Mark. Syllogisms don't defeat God's Word.

That quote says "he came to them.." not "he came to save them." Besides, you sound an awful lot like a universalist and that one must not receive Christ in order to be saved. I hope that's not what you're saying, but it sure sounds like it is.

 

I am no Calvinist, but, considering what you said from a to c, all I can say is what an abject, pitiful failure your god is, and if you give me the argument that Arminianism usually gives, that God decided to honor man by allowing him free choice, what mindlessness that is then, that a holy God should now honor a vile, unholy, despicable, dirty, rotten sinner's twisted sense of choices.

 

This is what threw me off, Doc, and sent you all those PM's. I thought we had another Calvinism forum besides this. You got me there.

 

IMO, here is perhaps the strongest passage that once-and-for-all puts the doctrine of Limited Atonement to rest.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (KJV)

We know what Jesus was referring to in this passage. Every single man, woman, boy, and girl had the opportunity to look upon the brazen serpent that Moses lifted up in obedience to God. No one was exempt; no one was "elected" or "predestined" to look. Some chose to do it God's way; some chose to try it their own way. Salvation is no different.

Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me ." (KJV)

Even though man's nature is totally depraved, God's justice requires that He gives equal opportunity to all men to be saved. He will, at some point in a person's life, draw them to Himself. It is each one's individual responsibility to respond to that drawing.

 

Yet, Pastor Bob, Millions have died without ever hearing the name of Jesus. "all men " refers to all races and nations of people. God is under no obligation to save anyone but out of His grace He saves some.

 

How about Mark Osgatharp addressing these scriptures and proving that there are NO elect, NO such thing as election in the Bible, and that God sent His Son to die on the cross for unknown sinners.

 

Job 42:2
I know that You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

Since syllogisms are for this thread, I just want to point out the obvious, clear teaching of the word of God.

1. God can do everything.
2. No one can stop God.
3. God will accomplish all that he purposes to do.
4. People go to hell.
5. God did NOT purpose to save every individual, even though it was legitimately offered.
6. The purpose of Christ was to save a specific group.

 

No, thank you. I will not violate the precepts and rules of scripture study which God gave and that is to compare Scripture with Scripture. Here is what the Holy Spirit said in Isaiah 28:9-13 -

Your insistence on discussing scriptures and doctrine within the boundaries of sillogism follows earthly wisdom and is subtle and seeks to prove only your interpretation against what Scripture clearly teaches about Unconditional Election.

 

PinoyBaptist,
Here is a comparison of scripture that is trustworthy! In both cases it is Jesus THE SAVIOR, speaking. You will agree that there is no other who can save will you not? If Jesus is the ONLY savior, then His words are to be believed, and he says,

Jesus is consistent in His message for he also said,

Peter confirms Jesus' words by declaring in 1 Peter 1:13-25, that man's regeneration come from believing the Word of God, and does not precede the hearing of the word.