Could Judas Iscariot be the antichrist?

Denise,

Agree that antichrist is a literal person or personage.

just as christ is mentioned as a literal person made up of multiple members. such is antichrist made up of multiple members representing a whole.
as to a system. take religion for instance. it competes for the indwelling of the spirit within its the religious members. competing things such as rituals, and saint worship and garb and services are only meant to sooth the flesh. make it feel seperated unto God..their God of their imagination.
unfortunately not by the indwelling of the spirit whos desire is to live through the believer creating a living hope of the resurrected Believer unto a living God.
listen as religion creates an interpretation of a forward looking "enemy" which religion must forewarn its members to avoid.. an imaginary puppet created to foil the attention of the true spirit that dwells within the hallowed halls of christian religiosity.
always pointing to a futuristic enemy. when the real battle and the real enemy is within the hearts and minds of the believers. today.

again I emphasize that only two literal men exist.
adam and christ. both are made up of multiple parts or members.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Jesus speaks of it another way.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

and the spirit of adam is antichrist. the flesh

does this force us ask the question, were we not all a member of antichrist at some time? yes.

as was judas...

 

What exactly does this mean??

 

Assuming you are referring to Matthew 16, the context makes it pretty obvious. Six days later, they saw the son of Man come in the glory of the Father at the Transfiguration.

Read the previous verse:
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.

So Christ came with His angels and rendered judgement at the Transfiguration? You are more Preterist than me.

Why not?? They were standing there and some of them saw the Transfiguration. When the obvious makes good sense, go with it.

We agree, it was the disciples who would see these things.

He did get the timing right. It seems that you have simply misunderstood it because you insist on your timeline.

I follow Christ's timeline. If I followed any other I would still be a futurist.

Been there. Remember these words are Greek words. Study their usage and their lexical domain. Study their usage apart from your presuppositions about what they must mean.

Again you refuse to answer. I have never seen you address this. If you will link me to the message I will read your response.

Study their usage and their lexical domain. Study their usage apart from your presuppositions about what they must mean

OK, Here is an article:

Greek: Mello

This is the first of five articles examining the Greek words as used in the Bible. I want to share with you why the full Preterist position is consistent with the Scripture, especially these passages that speak of things about to come. We are going to look into the lexicons with the Greek word "mello" (with its root words) which means "to be about to be, to be the point of doing" (Analytical Greek Lexicon, p. 262; Arndt, p. 500; Thayer, p. 396). I think this word "mello" is one of the most neglected English translations (NASB, KJV, NIV, etc.) of the eschatological passages in the NT. I was shocked to find out about this. The English translators may be guilty of removing or distorting God's Holy Word (Deut. 4:2). I believe it is because of the futurists' views that have affected or influenced translations of the Bible. This is pure eisegesis.
I am going to show you some eschatological passages. I am using NASB and you will see "[about]" which is in Greek text. I would recommend you to check some books in Greek and English with the interlinear translation, "The New Englishman's Concordance and Lexicon" and "Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible." These books may be very helpful for you. You will see why.
1. Matt. 3:7 & Luke 3:7 - "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath [about] to come?" In this context, John the Baptist was preaching to the Jewish people. He warned the Jewish religious leaders about God's wrath to come shortly and it happened in 66-70 AD (3 1/2 years). The Old Covenant temple and the city of Jerusalem were destroyed by the Roman armies. Many Jewish people had been completely scattered or killed and all these things were fulfilled in 70 AD. See Daniel 12:7-13 and Luke 21:5-36.
2. Matt. 12:32 - "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this (Old Covenant) age, or in the (New Covenant) age [about] to come." Why did Jesus say it shall not be forgiven, either in this age OR the age about to come? He is speaking of sins committed in the time before the destruction of the Jewish temple before 70 AD ("this age") and afterward ("the age to come"). We will study the Greek word "age" which is "aion" in Part Five.
3. Matt. 16:27, 28 - "For the Son of Man is [about] to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and WILL THEN RECOMPENSE EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." These passages are the most clear and straightforward from the mouth of Jesus Christ, otherwise He is a false prophet. This is why I believe Jesus returned in the glory of His Father with the angels to take the Kingdom away from God's enemies and give it back to His Father who now is all in all.
4. Matt. 24:6 - "And you will [about to] be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end." Jesus was speaking to His disciples in their GENERATION (Matt. 24:34).
5. Luke 21:36 - "But keep on alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." In this verse the NASB translators did not delete the Greek word "mello." Notice the word "you" several times in this chapter where Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not to us or future third parties.
6. Acts 17:31 - "Because He has fixed a day in which He [is about to] judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof all men by raising Him from the dead." Paul made it very clear that God was ABOUT to judge the world in his generation. This is a strong case for the Preterist view of Scripture.
7. Acts 24:14, 15 - "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law, and that is written in the Prophets; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall [about to be] a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." Again, Paul made it very clear. He was expecting everything that written to be fulfilled very soon in his lifetime including the resurrection. Throughout the NT, we have seen the proclamation of the fulfillment of Israel's promises for the gospel going "to the Jews first, then the Greek"; the on-going Post-Pentecost transition from the Old Covenant to the New which is a pervasive and emphatic testimony for first century imminence of the time of the end.
8. Acts 24:25 - "And as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment [about] to come, Felix became frightened and said, "Go away for the present, and when I find time, I will summon you." Notice Felix became frightened.
9. Acts 26:22, 23 - "And so, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going [about] to take place; that Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He should be the first to proclaim light both to Jewish people and to the Gentiles." Notice Paul said the writings of the Prophets and Moses were about to be fulfilled.
10. Rom. 8:18 - "For I consider that sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is [about] to be revealed to us." Read the whole context in Rom. 8:18-25.
11. Rom. 8:38, 39 - "For I am convinced that neither death, not life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things [about] to come, nor powers, nor height, not depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Notice things present (Mosaic Age) and things about to come (Messianic Age) are associated with death, life, angels, etc. which shall not able to separate us from the love of God.
12. 1 Corinthians 3:21-23 - "So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things [about] to come; all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God." This is the same thing as in Rom. 8:38.
13. Eph 1:21 - "Far above all rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named not only this age, but also in the one [about] to come." It is very important to understand the meaning of "this age" (Old Covenant) and "the age about to come" (New Covenant) because it is the Jewish interpretation of eschatology. You will see this in my article in Part Five.
14. Col. 2:16, 17 - "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day, things which are a mere shadow of what is [about] to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." These passages are the most important to understand the Old Covenant (Jewish festivals, ceremonial, promises, etc.) which was about to completed in Christ. Some futurists believe all these things were completed at the cross but it was not at the time of Paul's writing. So, obviously we don't practice these things for today because they were done away in 70 AD.
15. 2 Tim. 4:1 - "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is [about] to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom." This verse would close the case against the Futurist's views. At Christ's return the wicked were judged and cast into eternal torment, the same place where all other wicked go at death. The righteous inherited resurrection life back in the presence of God for the first time since Adam, the representative of the human race, lost it in the Garden. Resurrection life is Paradise restored (Rev. 2:7). Jesus (the tree of life) gave us the eternal life.
16. Heb. 1:13, 14 - "But to which of the angels has He ever said, "Sit at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet?" Are they not all ministering spirits, send out to render service for the sake of those who will [about to] inherit salvation?" The enemies of Christ were the Jewish people (Luke 19:27, Rom. 11:28, Phil 3:2, 18, 19). Christ crushed the head of all enemies even Death, and sat down at the right hand of His Father to reign eternally, whose kingdom shall have no end. Notice all the saints since the Fall are ABOUT to inherit salvation (redemption) in heaven.
17. Heb. 2:5 - "For He did not subject to angels the world [about] to come, concerning which we are speaking." The Hebrew writer was discussing the Mosaic age that was "put into effect through angels" (Acts 7:53). The new covenant world would be in subjection to Jesus, not angels. Note that the writer wrote to the first century audience "concerning which we are speaking." They did not see everything subject in Jesus because the 70 AD judgment had not yet occurred.
18. Heb. 9:11 - "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things [about] to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation." Read in Heb. 8:6-13, 9:8-12, 15. At the time of writing, the earthly temple was still there and Christ the High Priest had not yet been disclosed from the holy place in heaven. In the OT, the high priest sacrificed the animal and then brought the blood into the holy of holies on the Day of Atonement. When the high priest came out of the holy of holies, the actual atonement had been made. But the blood of bulls and goats did not take away sins (Heb. 10:4). Jesus already came out of the holy place and brought all of His elect into the glory of God in heaven. That is why all the elect, physical, Israel were saved by the time the Parousia took place at the destruction of the Temple as it is written in Rom. 11:5, 25-29 (c.f. Heb. 9:15, 28). Since then, all of God's elect are no longer subject to Death (condemnation) and Hades (separation from God's presence). I believe at death the elect shed their physical bodies, and continue living in their spiritual immortal bodies with God in heaven forever.
19. Heb. 10:1 - "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things [about] to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near." The writer of Hebrews tried to remind the Jewish people about the promises of God which were about to be fulfilled in Christ.
20. Heb 10:27 - "But a certain terrifying exception of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will [about to] consume the adversaries." Again, the writer warned the Jewish people of their time to turn to Jesus Christ, otherwise they would face the wrath of God. Read Heb. 10:25-39. These verses are vivid.
21. Heb. 13:14 - "For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is [about] to come." Clearly, this verse is speaking of the New Jerusalem after the Old Jerusalem would be destroyed and rendered obsolete. Read Heb. 11:16, Rev. 21:1-7, 9-10.
22. 1 Peter 5:1 - "Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and partaker also of the glory that is [about] to be revealed." Peter understood and he was expecting the glory that was about to revealed. Remember, he was inspired by God. Read carefully in 1 Peter 1:4-13, 20; 2:6-8; 4:7.
23. Rev. 1:19 - "Write therefore the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall [about to] take place after these things." In Rev. 1:9-20, these passages are "The things which you have seen." In Rev. 2:1-3:22 are "The things which are," and then in Rev. 4:1-22:5 are "the things which are ABOUT to take place after these things." There are only three sections and notice the last section was about to take place in John's generation. Read Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 7, 10, 12, 20. We must NOT attempt to explain away the statements of imminence. That is the rule of the interpretation. Some try to use 2 Peter 3:8 to interpret the overwhelming abundance of the statements of imminence. However, their hermeneutic is unacceptable.
24. Rev 12:5 - "And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is [about] to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and His throne." It is clearly about Jesus who was caught up to God and His throne in heaven, not on the earth. In John's vision, Jesus was about to rule with a rod of iron.
Here is a quote from Eusebius, the Christian historian in the late third century. This is what he wrote about James, the brother of the Lord, when James was in trial with the Jewish leaders, "And he (James) answered with a loud voice, 'Why do ye ask me respecting Jesus the Son of Man? He is now sitting in the heavens, on the right hand of great Power, and is about to come on the clouds of heavens.' in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, p. 77 (emphasis mine).
So, the Preterist view is consistent with the Scriptures. Let the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures. Check the Greek words and some historians, and you will find the Preterist view has the strongest case against any other eschatological views. I don't know how the Futurists would defend themselves with these passages which I have shown. We ought to "be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15).
The Reformed Futurists (Amillennialism, Postmillennialism or Historic Premillennialism) cannot defend their eschatological views with Dispensationalism, Charismatic and Pentecostal churches, Arminianism, Judaism, Liberal Theologians and the cults because they have some holes. Once the Reformed churches come into the full Preterist view, they will be able to defend the truth against the members of these false religions, and they will be able expose them with their errors. Reformed Preterists can make a big difference, no matter what others will think.
What do you think all of this so far, especially after examining the Greek word "mello"? Hopefully this will help a lot and cause you to rethink the reasons for your eschatological view.

 

denise,

just as you search the scriptures for a better understanding of what your spirit is being taught.
we all look for the same definitions also.

If we listen to the Holy spirit as our teacher. we correctly concluded with the proper definition as we are able to read God words within his Bible.. yet God has written the bible in a way in which if our carnal spirit is in control,we discover a completely erronious set of definitions prepared by God towards someone who is unauthorized and unprepared to read his message intended for his obedient children.

your confusion lies in the previous teachings and understandings of your past and attempting to incorporate the ideas that I contribute here.

antichrist is the spirit of the flesh. It is our old mans spirit. It is the Spirit that Jesus destroys with the brightness (glory) of his coming.
this destruction of the old man is never completed until we get out of this flesh, yet we can overcome its influences within our lives by disassociation of its works and by faith that give Jesus the authority to control our lives and activities.

by faith, we are allowed to believe that the antichrist has been destroyed, his system that has been constructed from the beginning of time has become ineffective. and even that satans influences have become powerless..By faith.

by faith God says that the antichrist is revealed within us at the coming of Christ as lord in our lives. By faith. it means that our old man is dead and a new spirit has been resurrected from the dead and placed in our bodies. by faith.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

why cant believers see that this is their spiritual resurrection day within them. the day of revealing and Judgement of their old man and the announcement that Jesus is Lord of their Life...within them, by faith.

this is the spirit of our old man within us..adam fleshly carnal spirit, the spirit of antichrist.

while we are physically alive...this is called the spiritual rebirth.

its a replacement of one spirtual control on the throne (antichrist or self) in our hearts to Christ.

I have found a link that others before us has uncovered and explains far better than i can.
antichrist link

and to answer your question of looking for a single leader over the world that would woo and awe the entire world in 31/2 years with great and wonderous powers...nope.

6 billion people giving their allegiance to one human being. in 3 1/2 years..HaHaHaHeHeHe(ROFL)

Me2

 

Pastor Larry,

1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

figurative, yet literal.

one body many members.

this is represented as christ as a whole
this is represented as antichrist as a whole.

it is represented by a collective attitude or belief structure or nature. if there are only two nature represented on earth by many peoples. either you belong to the "family" or "body" of "jesus" Christ or "adam" (antichrist)

we were once of one "body" or "seed". that of man.

at the introduction of Christ a new strain of "seed" entered into our existence. God adopts some into His Family headed by Christ. now there are two "bodies" of peoples, or believers on earth.

and mans original strain or spirit has been identified as another. a competetor. an antichrist

Me2

 

These verses are a reference ot the church as the body of Christ. It has no reference whatsoever to Christ or Antichrist. Christ was a literal person, a single person, a historical person. He is not made up of many other people. That is nonsense. These verses have nothing to do with teh subject at hand.

 

Pastor Larry,

we can play the game of ponzi all day. but since the truth is plain.

one body, many members

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Me2

 

Not sure what the game of ponzi is. What I am sure of is that the Body of Christ referred to in the verses you quoted is teh church. The question had to do with the person of Christ. Not the church which is his body. You quote the verse concerning Jesus Christ which is come in the flesh. That is the Jesus Christ that we are talking about here. We are not talking about the body of Christ.

 

No, you clearly miss the point. The transfiguration was a foretaste of the return of Christ. His disciples saw Christ in teh glory of the Father.

You contradict yourself. You are a preterist. Christ was not. Christ was a futurist. His coming was in the future to him, and it is still in teh future to us. There is absolutely no way that you can point to the historical coming of Christ in teh glory of hte Father to set up his kingdom and reign in righteousness and judgment. If he did, then you would have to explain why the world is still the way that it is.

I don't refuse to answer. I have answered many times. Do a search and find it, or better yet, get Thomas's commentary. No one's commentary collection on Revelation is complete without his work, regardless of whether you hold his position. His commentary is hands down the best commentary currently available on the book of Revelation.

So what??? Your presuppositions are faulty and cannot be reconciled with Scripture or with history. That is the problem. You want to be a preterist, but you don't want to accept the fact that preterism cannot deal with the facts of history in light of the Scripture. If preterism is right, then the Scriptures are totally misleading. I simply refuse to accept that proposition. I do not believe that God mislead his people.

As for the word Mello, you can look it up. There is no need to use interlinears. Just read the text and do the lexical work. The books that you list are not all that helpful. There are better resources for this type of research.

I think it is a collection of very weak attempts to prove something that does not have any proof in Scripture. I could go through each verse individually and show many problems. But I simply don't have time for that. You can't simply insert "about" in front of every occasion of mello and pretend like you have killed the big one. It simply doesn't work that way. Translators know this. That is why they don't do it. It is amazing that you think the translations are affected by futurists. Have you ever considered the fact that the translators are very good at what they do and are very accurate?? This whole conspiracy theory just won't hold water. The preterist position has never stood serious examination because of the inherent faults in timing of the scriptural writing and the basic facts of history.

Consider the following.

Christ promised to judge sinners in teh age to come and it is clear from Scripture that the said judgment is eternal hell. Yet that judgment is clearly not here.
Christ promised to come in visible form on the clouds of glory with his angels at the end of the age. Yet this age is still here and Christ never (repeat never) came on clouds of glory.
The word mello itself can have a variety of time frames, from a few days to a very long period. You have tried to make them all fit your system.
Consider 1 Tim 4:8 (one of your citations). It refers to the life to come (mellousas). That is clearly a long ways off. It refers to death, not a period of a couple of days. It is an indefinite period. So we see clear evidence that mello can refer to an indefinite period of time.
Heb 11 talks of the city which is to come, referring to the New Jerusalem. That city is quite clearly not yet here since it is formed after the dissolution fo the old heavens and the old earth (Rev 20-21). Such a passage clearly refutes your use of mello.

The point with all of this is that mello will not bear up under the weight that you have put on it. You are the one involved in eisogesis here. You have taken your position to Scripture and then read everything in light of that. I reject that method of interpretation. Scripture must be allowed to speak for itself.

 

Pastor Larry,

sorry for the misdirection..by the way..thats ponzi.

the mention of Jesus christ coming in the flesh was merely pointing out an antichrist.

and by the by, another misconception of many religious bodies teachings.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: [/b]

that the binding common denominator between members is the same spirit within all confessing believers. that Jesus christ is within their flesh.

the antichrist spirit competes for authority over the mind of the believer and will trick the believer into not being able to accept what the Holy Spirit is teaching them.

that Jesus christ's spirit is within them...
but because of the antichrist spirit, Jesus has no authority over the carnal mindset at this point.

Me2

 

1 John 4:2 is about the incarnation, not about whether or not Jesus Christ is in someone's flesh. To the latter, we cannot claim that is true in any physical sense, but at most, only in a spiritual sense.

 

Pastor Larry,

are we to say some are under the assumption that the sealing of the holy spirit is the promise of receiving a new spirit after death?

I was under this belief for quite a while when I kept close to my beliefs the parable of the
wineskins. as it was stating that not only would the skin receive new wine but yet the skin itself would have to be replaced before it received new wine. (bear with me..) that a new body would have to receive a new spirit.
Mat 9:17 Mar 2:22

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.


keeping in mind my faith have enlarged since..

Me2

 

Hi Denise,

I look at people who live "in the future" and I question their own existence..why live if one cant see the good in life. or the good in people. I dont like to dwell on the negative yet I know if anything comes towards me in life. It is for my learning. the rest is subtrifuge on a grand scale. meant to sharpen up the value of Faith in Gods people.

guess what, i was a pretrib/premill..actually shook tim lahaye's hand. WooHoo, and now I can say...been there done that.
that was 25 years ago..

the most important thing I actually did in Life since then..was to question Gods Love...

Was He Telling the Truth or Just Plain Lying...

back to pretrib/Premill..its starting to make no sense.

So what about this God..Do you really Love your creation? are you really going to kill Billions and Billions of People to prove your Love to them. and then torment them forever and forever...

so is it God who really Loves his creation with expectations of only saving 5% and infinitely tormenting the rest of YOUR Creation forever?
that is the pretrib/premill interpretation....
or how about ruling and reigning for 1000 years..boy the flesh would have a field day lusting after that power...
questions, questions...

makes one drop those interpretations quick if any slight hint of Doubt exists...(hhmmm, I could be one of those destroyed.. )

I dont make lite of those who believe such, yet Im here telling my beliefs and to let people know not to take their beliefs seriously if they cant prove what they believe. beliefs change when we actually have the proof in our hand and can believe without doubting..

so do i believe that God will destroy and kill his creation. nope
not only that, Jesus actually did die for His fathers creation. His precious blood covering every sin from the first to the Last.
allowing for all to be reconciled back to THEIR God. every last human being on terra firma.
Every last man woman and child.

not saving only 5%... but 100%

the question is not that you believe or not believe in your viewpoint of Eschatology..

But Is God Really Infinite Love ?

Now the antichrist..whats his Job..
to stay in control. and if it make you continually look into the future and never come to the truth that gives you living Hope in a God that is Infinite Love.
A Real Living God that Does love all his creation and only has their best in his Heart.

Well I guess all you can do is try and ask the right questions and leave the unimportant ones for later.

 

I didn't say I take prophesy in the Bible 100% literally. I said that I tend to take what it says in the Bible literally. In this case the passage I'm speaking of is not prophesiing about events to come, it's not a parable as far as the style in which it was written..... but an account of what happened. It's not song or poem, it's not the law....am I mistaken? aren't there parts of the Bible that in actuallity, mean what they litterally say?

 

Wisdomseeker,

I was only remarking to what Ive been witnessing on this board and some beliefs. not yours specifically.

the lessons of the bible are simple and repeated often. It is to teach us to accept the existence of God by faith.
Who God is and What are his Plans for us. Simple

God creates two opposing armies with us as the prize. the flesh and the spirit and we become the determining factor of what side controls our will.
In the interim, we learn about the knowledge of Good and Evil.

now about your question regarding literal knowledge. Even if it sound as though it can be interpreted literally..theres a spiritual message woven within it.

think on this..the book was written by prophets who were inspired by the holy spirit as they wrote.

What is now being read of the bible requires the same inspiration to interpret what was written.

what would you think are the results of someone reading the bible without the same inspiration to interpret was written?

heres an example...

we might only think that the curse in revelation is specifically for the message within its letter.
yet the message is as a composite of the bible. only in vision form. thus we take anything away. weve taken away from or added to the whole of the bibles message

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

anyone driven to be interested in knowing what the bible says has already been invited to learn.
wether they fail in learning of the holy spirit or not is their ultimate decision

what is being said in these statements are that the holy spirit has told the reader the prophecy.
(through the spirit)
yet as it comes time for the believer to humble themselves to believe the prophecy by faith (trial by fire). they choose to accept or refused to give christ his position of authority. if they refuse to humble themselves before christ as their authority they then begin to add or subtract from the message via their own carnal understanding.

that is the system of flesh, or carnal thinking or antichrist at work.

Me2

[ July 25, 2003, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

You just described what happened in 70AD as the Roman army surrounded Jerusalem and began the 3 and a half year siege on the city. Read Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse.

What would it matter to those in Jerusalem today if it was in winter or on the Sabbath? He was warning those in the 1st. Century, because they were the ones who would see these things.

Read Josephus's "War of the Jews" and get a eye witness account.

 

Was this the actual time of the abomination of desolation of the second physical temple..or did this event happen quite a bit of time previous to the appearing of Christ?

Me2

 

No, you clearly miss the point. The transfiguration was a foretaste of the return of Christ. His disciples saw Christ in teh glory of the Father.

Let me try again. You say vs. 28 refers to the Transfiguration, does vs. 27? Yes or no?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.
28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Notice vs. 28 says "some". The Transfiguration was 6 days later. They were ALL still alive. False statement as you interpret it.

There is absolutely no way that you can point to the historical coming of Christ in teh glory of hte Father to set up his kingdom and reign in righteousness and judgment. If he did, then you would have to explain why the world is still the way that it is.

You make the same mistake the disciples make. You are looking for a physical Kingdom. What does Jesus say about His Kingdom?

Lk 17:20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

That is why the world is still the way it is.

When will the Kingdom come? Listen to Jesus:

Matt4:17 From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Of course, you don't believe "at hand'" means "at hand"

Dan. 2 tells us when the Kingdom will come. During the Roman Empire.

His commentary is hands down the best commentary currently available on the book of Revelation.

Let me take a wild guess and say he agrees with you?

You want to be a preterist, but you don't want to accept the fact that preterism cannot deal with the facts of history in light of the Scripture. If preterism is right, then the Scriptures are totally misleading. I simply refuse to accept that proposition. I do not believe that God mislead his people.

I don't want to be a Preterist, I am one. History is on my side.Read Matt. 24-25. Then read Josephus. You do believe God mislead His people, because you throw out all the time indicators and say none of this has happened.

It is amazing that you think the translations are affected by futurists. Have you ever considered the fact that the translators are very good at what they do and are very accurate??

First you say the words near, shortly, at hand, quickly, soon, don't mean what what we would normally think they mean. Then you say how accurate the translators were. Hypocrisy?

The preterist position has never stood serious examination because of the inherent faults in timing of the scriptural writing and the basic facts of history.

Faults in timing? Facts of History? Foolishness!

The word mello itself can have a variety of time frames, from a few days to a very long period. You have tried to make them all fit your system.

You are the one that puts none of them in a short period and puts them all into the future of at least 2000 years. You are the one who has to twist them to fit your system. I think near means near.

Christ promised to come in visible form on the clouds of glory with his angels at the end of the age. Yet this age is still here and Christ never (repeat never) came on clouds of glory

This is where you need to put down Hal Lindsey books and turn off Jack Van Impe and read your Old Testament.

The bible is a Jewish book written by Jews and for Jews. Therefore they use language they are familiar with.

You say Christ said He would come in visible form. I see no such statement. Every eye shall see Him doesn't mean visible. Scripture intepret scripture. Romans 11:

7 What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:
8 according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.
You take this literal? Eyes and ears often mean understanding. You see?

What do clouds mean to a 1st. century Jew? Why don't we look in the old Testament.
Isaiah 19

1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Jehovah came to Egypt riding a cloud. Literal or symbolic?

Ex. 13:
21 And Jehovah went before them by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way, and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light, that they might go by day and by night:


Jehovah often came in clouds when coming in Judgement.
More clouds see: :joel2,2;Ex14:24;19:9;20:21;24:15;33:9; Ps.97:2;104:3;

Similar language is used to describe the fall of nations or cities.

Destruction of Babylon by the Medes:
Is 13
9 Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.

Sound familiar?

How about the judgement on Nineveh
Nahum 1

1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt; and the earth is upheaved at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Fall of Egypt: Ez.32:7-8, Fall of Israel Amos8:9

Heb 11 talks of the city which is to come, referring to the New Jerusalem. That city is quite clearly not yet here since it is formed after the dissolution fo the old heavens and the old earth

What is the old heaven and old earth? Shall we go back to the Old Testament? See Is.51:6;16, 65:17-19.

Lets quote Jesus:
Matt.5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

So have Heaven and Earth passed away or are we still under the Law?

Old Heaven and Earth is the Old Covenant consisting of fleshly Israel and physical Jerusalem.

Heb.8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

Heb 11 talks of the city which is to come, referring to the New Jerusalem. That city is quite clearly not yet here since it is formed after the dissolution fo the old heavens and the old earth

Why do you continue to look for a physical Jerusalem in a Physical kingdom? If the Kingdom is spiritual then won't the city be also?

You have taken your position to Scripture and then read everything in light of that. I reject that method of interpretation. Scripture must be allowed to speak for itself.

Then let it!

Enjoy these quotes:

Bertrand Russell In his book Why I am not a Christian, he says, "I am concerned with Christ as he appears in the gospel narrative ?He certainly thought that his second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at the time. There are a great many texts that prove?He believed that His coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living. That was the belief of His earlier followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of His moral teaching."

Albert Schweitzer In his book, The Quest of the Historical Jesus, Schweitzer summarised the problem of ‘second coming delay?as follows: "The whole history of Christianity down to the present day?is based on the delay of the parousia (appearing), the nonoccurrence of the parousia, the abandonment of eschatology, the process and completion of the ‘de-eschatologising?of religion which has been connected therewith."

Muslim critics Many Muslims paint Christianity as a failed religion and a false religion. They agree that Jesus was a prophet, but discredit His divinity and the credibility of our Christian faith by pointing out alleged errors and inconsistencies concerning His perceived non-return. They believe Jesus and His disciples either lied about His imminent return, or they were mistaken. Either way, they consider Jesus to be a false prophet.

Scoffers In the NT times, Jewish scoffers saw the link between Jesus?return and the destruction of the temple. They pointed to the continuation of all things, the Temple, city and priesthood as evidence that Jesus hadn’t come back as He had promised. No visible changes could be seen. They mockingly asked, "Where is this coming He promised?" (2 Peter 3:3-4; Jude 16-19) Please take into account the prophesies were about 30 years old, while now they are nearly 2000 years old! If there was a delay, have those scoffers been proven correct?

C. S. Lewis Even C. S. Lewis, the respected and might I say, famous Christian author and apologist, said in 1960: "Say what you like, the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the second coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, "this generation shall not pass till all these things be done." And He was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else. It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the bible."

It is not Preterist who twist these scriptures but futurist. What are the simplist meanings to the following verses? Ask any grade schooler what these words mean. Quit forcing square pegs into round holes.

The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)


"His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Lk. 3:17)


“What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Lk. 20:15-16,19)


"Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'” (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

“There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15)

“I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18)

“When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13)

“…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)

“They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5)


“It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)