CALVINISM MAKES THE CALL OF THE GOSPEL DECEPTIVE

First, Pastor, I didn't say my rejection wasn't based on Scripture. I said that "one of the primary reasons" for my rejection of Calvinism had to do with the way it made scripture illogical, confusing and unexplainable to even those who have the Spirit. God is the author of peace not confusion. Calvinism's view of scripture confuses many, many, many strong Christian people.

Second, Pastor, you ignored my argument that Calvinism tries to explain away this apparent contradiction which causes scripture to be deceptive.

Third, you admit that Scripture is "illogical" and thus confusing even to believers, yet the Bible clearly teaches God is the author of peace not confusion. How do you explain that?

Not at all, I'm simply not allowing you to ignore the main point I was making. That can be done by letting you have it your way on the non-issues. I was merely saying "whatever", even if we interpret it that way, my point still stands, which btw you still have not addressed. The issue is that hardened Israel has made their choice and those who hear the gospel have a choice to make as well, this means Jesus' words are not deceptive in those passages where he calls everyone to respond as if they have a choice.

 

Really?? How do you determine who is a strong Christian person?? By whether or not they reject Calvinism?? I have never seen a strong Christian person confused by Calvinism. It doesn't make Scripture illogical in anyway. It is confusing to you because of your presuppositions about the nature of man.

i didn't ignore it. I disagree with it. Scriptures are not deceptive in any way. They fully support the sovereingty of God in salvation.

I have admitted that some of the revelation of God is not completely clear to our finite minds. That does not mean I jettison the revelation of God. It means that I readjust my thinking. God is not the author of confusion to be sure. But since Calvinism is not confusing, that doesn't apply. The only thing that makes it confusing is when people don't let the text say what it says.

You have misdefined and misappplied the hardening. What else is there to say?? You have created a doctrine of hardening that has no real relevance. The hardening of the nation is probably not until after Matthew 12 and the unpardonable sin which is probably well after the events of John 6. Your doctrinal creation is simply not satisfying to the text.

 

Russell, look back at Romans 11, especially in verse 11. Paul asks, "did THEY stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?" Who is they? Hardened Israel, not the Remnant chosen by Grace as we can clearly see in verse 7. So, to say that jealousy is the means God uses to saved the elect remnant is not valid, instead its the unique means he uses to save some of the hardened ones.

Plus, why would God need to use "jealousy" when He normally uses His "effectual calling;" is the effectually calling not strong enough?

Some of them didn't believe, but some of them did who were not his apostles, and they were not able to come and follow him as did the 12, this is the only point I was making.

For example, look at John 7:30-31: "...his time had not yet come. Still, many in the crowd put their faith in him."

But because the Spirit had not been given yet they weren't regenerated and given a deposit as a guarentee for salvation.

Look on down in 7:37-39:

On the last and most important day of the festival, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone is thirsty, he should come to Me and drink! The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him." He said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been received, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

We can see that many had faith in Christ but the Spirit had not yet "sealed them." Faith comes first, then the Spirit. Still, these people followed from afar and were not "given to Christ" as were the apostles.

In short, some didn't believe because they were hardened and others may have believed but were not given to hear the direct teachings from the Lord as were the apostles. Notice he drives everyone away but the twelve and he says to them, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve?"

Eventually everyone can be taught by God through the Spirit, but until that time only the chosen twelve were receiving the mysteries of the kingdom from Christ himself.

 

No, you're the one missing the point--the point of having this particular discussion of Israel's hardening in this particular thread, anyway. The only reason I am dicussing this issue is to make this point:

If you criticise Calvinists because Jesus saying "whosoever believes" if some can't believe seems deceptive, then that same criticism can be turned back on you and your system.

Under your system, Jesus still stays "whosoever believes" when there are some--hardened Israel--who can't believe. If you make the "seems deceptive" accusation toward Calvinism, aren't you just a wee bit like the pot that called the kettle black?

 

Hi everyone
A quote from Larry;
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How do you determine who is a strong Christian person?? By whether or not they reject Calvinism?? I have never seen a strong Christian person confused by Calvinism.
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My Rely;
This isn't true Larry. I'm a strong Christian person and Calvinism is contradictory to the entire Bible. You are able to know who is a Christian by there fruits. Truth be told Larry none are strong we are all weak on our own. Only Jesus Christ can make us strong.

A quote from Larry;
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It means that I readjust my thinking.
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My reply;
It seems to me if you have to reajust your thinking, after being saved. Then you are not following your own teachings . Your following your own thoughts. Didn't you tell me that this is the Holy Spirits job or what he does.He guides you if you let Him

A quote from Larry;
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But since Calvinism is not confusing,
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My Reply;
If contradictory isn't confusing, I don't know what is. Calvinist claim that God foreordains sin. This is contradictive to His Character. Calvinist say that God predestins some men to Hell for his good pleasure. The Bible says;
"2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

A quote from Larry;
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The only thing that makes it confusing is when people don't let the text say what it says.
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My Reply;
I'm all for that Larry. The problem is though, you don't let it say what it says. You have to interpret it first. You've said so yourself that you do.

A quote from larry;
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You have misdefined and misappplied the hardening. What else is there to say?? You have created a doctrine of hardening that has no real relevance.
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My reply;
There you go again; Accusing people of your own tactics. This is how you get out of answering the question. BTW you still didn't answer the question with scripture.

Romanbear

 

Pastor Larry,

With all due respect to you and your position on the board, you have not corrected any of us, but merely given your position as to what you think the Bible has to say. The same is true with my view. This is a discussion board and we are merely studying together what we understand to be His truth.

I was told at a Reformed seminary that the way we determine truth is to find the best consensus of what the entire church has to say about doctrine as it relates to the Bible. I believe the professor was correct. No one man has the answer-book, not even the 'ex cathedras' of the statements of the pope.

 

No, but that is a good start.
I determine a strong Christian by their fruit. Their faith, hope and love. I could introduce you to dozens who find Calvinism's teaches very confusing. Why? They are illogical and seem to contradict the scriptures that lead us to believe we must decide to follow Christ. Plus, these teachings give a very negative view of God.

Don't pretend Pastor that new converts to Calvinism don't start out confused. The truth of the matter is they never stop being confused they just learn the "pat answers" to give on questions they are confused about. Like, "His ways are higher than our ways." or "That's a paradox that we will never understand."

If some scriptures lead people to believe that they have a geniune choice and other scriptures teach that the choice has already been made, then the scripture is deceptive.

Calvinists on this board have said that believers start out Arminian and that we should evangelize like an Arminian. And even that certain passages lead one to think like an Arminian. It is these arguments I am addressing.

Translation: Some of the revelation is confusing even to believers.

Would God make his revelation so unclear as to lead people to believe a lie, only to straighten them out once they were enlightened by the dogma of Calvinism? I don't think so!

Yeah, readjust my thinking from logical to completely illogical. From the Bible is clear and consistant to its "not clear to our finite minds." From thinking we have a choice to thinking the choice was already made.

I am not asking anyone to "jettison the revelation of God." I'm asking you to interpret it within the context in which it was written, which just so happens to be admist the hardening of God's chosen nation, along with the choosing of his remnant from that nation, and the effectual calling of his apostles. All of which you take and misapply to a universal soteriology of mankind.

That is simply untrue. Take Calvinism into any healthy, fruitful church and watch what happens. I admit a church that starts with Calvinism will not have as many problems, but I know very few of these churches that are bearing much fruit.

Some on this board have admitted that some of the teachings are "troubling." I remember when I was a Calvinist how troubling many of my beleifs were, eventhough I defended them as if my life depended on it. "Troubling" or "Confusing" its all semantics, Calvinism creates problems that our minds and our hearts abhore, even as believers. That doesn't sound like peace, it sounds like confusion.

What??? You believe that the hardening of Israel didn't begin until following the events of John 6? Do you have some support for this view or is it just something you are throwing out there as a smoke screen?

No, its not satisfying to Calvinism which is why you reject it. Instead, why don't you find some scriptural reasons to reject my views of Israel's hardening, instead of just declaring them "unsatificatory" to you.

Have a great day.

 

I understand you point Russell, but their is a difference. Israel has already made its choice.

Let's go back to the raffle illustration. If I start a raffle in my local city and almost everyone in my city refuses to participate, so then I decide to make the raffle statewide and make the announcement, "Anyone can participate in this raffle." Some of my friends question me and say, "Can everyone really participate, you're not even selling the tickets in your own home town? I explain to some of my friends that my home city won't participate becasue they have chosen not to be apart so I'm not selling the tickets there anymore. Is that deceptive to say, "Anyone can participate?" No. Its just the order of events, when Jesus says, "whosoever will believe" it is following Israel's rejection of God's ways and their hardening so this is not being deceptive.

Plus, you must keep in mind that the hardening is temporary. Once the Gentiles were engrafted then this would invoke jealousy among the Jews and possibly save some through their turning from unbelief. So, it seems that the hardening would have at least been during Christ's public ministry and until the Gentiles were being saved.

So,
1. Israel had made its choice already.
2. There hardening was temporary for the purpose of engrafting the Gentiles.

If these two facts are understood there is no deception in Christ's words.

 

I am a strong Christian and find Calvinism to be the teaching of Scripture. On what basis are you going to disagree. Do you want to start examining fruit adn comparing it?? Surely not.

Yes, but he guides us in Scripture. He calls us to renew our mind (Rom 12:2), to be renewed in teh spirit of our mind (Eph 4:24), to adjust our thinking (Eph 4:17-20), to control our thoughts (2 Cor 10:5) and I could go on and on. I would say if you are not changing your thinking after you got saved, then you didn't get saved.

I agree that contradictory is confusing. But I was talking about Calvinism, not contradiction. You continually misunderstand calvinism. That is your fault. No one elses.

Everyone interprets. You interpret wrongly because you read your meaning onto the text rather than reading what the normal meaning of the text says.

I have not created any doctrine. Bill has come up with a new doctrine of hardening so that he can reconcile things in his own mind. I showed form Scripture that the hardening of Israel is after John 6. What do you want a scriptural answer for?

 

I have corrected you on numerous occasions with respect to your misinformation about Calvinism. I get a little tired of you not listening. YOu can believe what you want but do not tell us what we believe when you clearly do not know or do not wish to know.

 

New doctrine? There is nothing new about it. Just becasue you are ignorant of a doctrine it doesn't make it new.

Speaking of new, where does the Bible ever say that the hardening had not begun by the events of John 6 when we see the hardening as prophecied in the OT and refered to throughout the entire NT.

Pastor, why don't you read the first part of John 6 and look at the events, Jesus feeding the 5 thousand and his walking on water. These events are also recorded for us in Mark chapter 6.

What do you know. LOOKY HERE IN MARK CHAPTER 4 VERSES 10-12 A REFERENCE TO ISRAEL'S ALREADY BEING HARDENED.

Too bad Pastor your NEW smoke screen of an argument just got blown away.

 

Larry;
A quote from you;

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Originally posted by romanbear:
I'm a strong Christian person and Calvinism is contradictory to the entire Bible.
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Larry's reply;
I am a strong Christian and find Calvinism to be the teaching of Scripture. On what basis are you going to disagree. Do you want to start examining fruit adn comparing it?? Surely not.

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My reply;
Actually from this statement below this is what I thought you wanted.
A quote from Larry;
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How do you determine who is a strong Christian person?? By whether or not they reject Calvinism?? I have never seen a strong Christian person confused by Calvinism.
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My Reply to the whole;
IMHO A wise Christian would not even consider Calvinism but see it as false doctrine. The last sentence quoted from you is wrong Larry you are calling all who oppose Calvinism weak Christians. Calvinism is what is weak Larry that's why it is so confusing. It contradicts it self.
Romanbear

 

By the way Pastor you also said that the hardening wasn't until after Matt. 12.

Look at the events that come after Matthew 12
1. The feeding of the 5 thousand in chapter 15 which is in John 6.
2. The clearing of the temple in Matthew chapter 21 and in John chapter 2.

I could go on, but I think your argument has been sufficiently disproven.

 

Several points of clarification:

Wise Christians do not see calvinism as false doctrine because it is what Scripture teaches.

I have not called all who oppose calvinism weak Christians. I have suggested that their thinking is not fully informed on the matter by Scripture. You have called calvinist unbelievers so I am not sure you can take the high road here.

Calvinism is confusing only to those who will not let Scripture stand on its own. If you bring your own ideas to Scripture, it will confuse. If Scripture is your final authority, you will not be.

I think the bigger issue is that strong vs. weak should not really be a topic of discussion. It has no real bearing. Paul fed the doctrine of election to Christians who were 3 or 4 months old (cf. 1 Thess 1:4). He did not apologize for it. He did not step around it. He simply said, God chose you. I think the issues should be settled on the basis of what the text says, not on the perjoratives that we can throw at people such as "strong Christians don't believe in Calvinism." That is simply ludicrous.

Bill,

You are right on the timing issue. I was operating quickly this morning. Most of these discussions are so basic it doesn't take much thought to answer them. This one I biffed. (See how easy it is to admit you are wrong?? You guys should try it when you are shown to be wrong.)

However, I think your attempt to bring the hardening in here is misplaced because it simply has nothing to do with the discussion. If you have read the theologies, you will find that "hardening" is not really a part of the discussion about soteriology. That is why I say it is a "new doctrine." It is really not new; it is however new to the discussion of soteriology such as is going on here. My point is that the people who understand the issues are not talking about "hardening" and trying to write off the nature of man to it. It is simply irrelevant. People are not even talking about it.

 

Reading the text would be helpful: Matthew 15:38 And those who ate were four thousand men, besides women and children. The feeding of the 5000 was actually chapter 14.

Knowing that John's gospel is not synoptic would also help.

 

Thank you for being honest, I truly respect that. I have admitted the times I beleived I was shown to be mistaken. If you look back at my earliest post where I accused Calvinism to be based upon an assumption as if I hadn't made any assumptions myself. I corrected by starting a new post saying I was sorry. I'm more than willing to admit when I make errors.

BTW, you are correct about the Matt. 15 and the feeding of the 4 thousand. I was quickly flipping through and just picking out several events that obviously contradicted your timing point. However, it doesn't change what I was attempting to show.

I have read the "theologies," many, many times. And most of them make the mistake of not seeing these many passages in light of the context of Israel's hardening causing them to misapply passages in the formation of a soteriology.

Don't you think it is important to know that when Jesus is speaking in John 6 that the majority of his audience (Israel) has been hardened by God? Don't you think that might affect your interpretation of this passage which talks about their ability?

(Larry, I think deep down you know that it would, which is exactly why you threw out that smoke screen of an argument earlier today. You know the doctrine of Hardening affects the soteriology of John 6 so you made that argument up about hardening not being until later. Why else would you feel the need to make that argument if you don't think it affects the interpretation?)

Yes, to you it is new to the discussion of soteriology which is exactly why your soteriology creates this endless debate among believers with its confusing paradoxes. You have not been considering all the facts! The Scripture is very clear and consistant if you have all the facts in view before you start creating a soteriology.

Pastor, just stop and think for a moment, "Could I be wrong? If I haven't fully considered the context of the scripture could I have misapplied its teaching concerning man's inability?"

The fact that "people are not even talking about it" proves the point that they are not even considering all the facts. They aren't considering the context in which scripture was written.

Don't you think teaching about God's blinding and deafening and hardening of a large group of people, of which much of the scripture was addressing, might affect ones understanding of man's inability? Of course it does. "Hardening" is almost exactly the same as the Calvinistic teaching of "Total Inability." How can that not be relevant to this discussion????

 

First, the "theology of hardening" does not account for the nature of gentiles. They too, just like the jews, have freely rejected Christ and are totally depraved. Paul treats Jew and Gentile alike in this regard.

Second, the "theology of hardening" does not account for the truth about the OT Jews.

Third, the theology of hardening is never mentioned in most of the passages that we are talking.

Fourth, my "consideration" of the theology of hardening has to do with the clarity of the texts that dissociate it from the truth about the nature of man.

Fifth, I think your whole premise about hardening is a desparate attempt to explain away the text. The context of these passages does not addres that hardening, and even if it did, it still compromises your "deceitless offer" of the gospel. Why was Christ offering the gospel to a hardened nation who couldn't believe anway.

Have you considered that the fact that the theologies don't talk about this means that it is you who are wrong and not they?? That should hit your square in the forehead ... metaphorically speaking of course.

Hardening is not "almost exactly the same as" total depravity. It is much different.

 

Hi Larry;
A quote from you;
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Wise Christians do not see Calvinism as false doctrine because it is what Scripture teaches.
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My Reply;
Then how come,none, that's right none of it, is supported by scripture. People here have shown you 5 scripture's to your one of why Calvinism isn't right yet you hang on to a false doctrine.

A quote from you;
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I have not called all who oppose calvinism weak Christians. I have suggested that their thinking is not fully informed on the matter by Scripture.
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My Reply;

As humbly as I can ask Larry who appointed you the judge of everyone else's ability to read and understand scriptures. This sentence below A quote from you.
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I have never seen a strong Christian person confused by Calvinism.
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My reply;
Funny there are a lot of people who come through here who do not believe Calvinism. When they read this statement will come away with the same thing I did. That is you are saying that if they are confused about it then they are weak.
A quote from Larry;
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You have called calvinist unbelievers so I am not sure you can take the high road here.
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My Reply;
As far as believing in Calvinism I do not. I never said that you didn't believe in Christ. I said you hold up Calvinism. I said devils believe and tremble. That man has to make a commitment to God. Both parties are willing and take the vows. For this I was accused of believing in works for salvation. Did you think the marriage in the Book of Revelations was one sided. The bride not having a choice. We are the Bride Larry. He is the bridegroom. If we are not ready we will miss the wedding.

You may not care for what I believe but this doesn't make you right. It sure doesn't make you strong. If we counted fruits to see who is the strongest this would be a Bragg. The only thing I boast about is my Savior there is none like Him. He is above all.

The Holy Spirit doesn't lead two people in different directions. One is no doubt mislead by them selves. We should both examine our selves and pray we have the wisdom to know truth when we see it. Then accept it as truth. Please don't say you do, just do it anyway. I have faith in my Savior he will not lie to me, about which is right. How ever I can Lie to myself and not know it.So can you.

I could sit and say I'm right all day long but that won't make me right. I encorage you to Pray in ernest about it Larry. Not because I think I'm right but you need to know and I think you know you do.
Romanbear

 

simply not true. The Bible says that natural man does not understand the things of God, is unable to please God, and cannot come to God. The Bible says that God chose us for salvation. The truth of the matter is that calvinism is simply biblical soteriology by an unfortunate nickname. You have yet to show even one verse that contradicts calvinism.

No one. That is why I "suggest"ed it rather than made an ex cathedra statement.

Then they, like you, misread it. I said I have never seen a strong Christian confused by it. I did not say that everyone who disagrees is weak. Read what is on the page, not what you wish is says.

You said in another thread that we were blind and that you hoped we would open our minds to the truth and turn to Christ. You are the one that said it, not me.

As for both parties being willing, we agree. God does not save anyone against their will. For you to continue to perpetuate that error is simply wrong. Ray tried the same thing earlier today and I had to correct him once again. If you dislike our belief, dislike it. But do not misrepresent it.

You are right. But neither does it make you right. The test of truth is not in the commitment of the one holding the position. It is in the conformity of truth to Scripture. On this basis, our position wins. It is simply what Scripture teaches.

I absolutely agree.

Every day I study Scripture confirms my view that God is sovereign over all things, including salvation. I continue to study for several reasons, not the least of which is the necessity of weekly preaching. Every day, my belief is confirmed yet once again through the reading and study of Scripture.

[ March 03, 2003, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]