Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Really?? How do you determine who is a strong Christian person?? By whether or not they reject Calvinism??
No, but that is a good start.
I determine a strong Christian by their fruit. Their faith, hope and love. I could introduce you to dozens who find Calvinism's teaches very confusing. Why? They are illogical and seem to contradict the scriptures that lead us to believe we must decide to follow Christ. Plus, these teachings give a very negative view of God.
Don't pretend Pastor that new converts to Calvinism don't start out confused. The truth of the matter is they never stop being confused they just learn the "pat answers" to give on questions they are confused about. Like, "His ways are higher than our ways." or "That's a paradox that we will never understand."
i didn't ignore it. I disagree with it. Scriptures are not deceptive in any way. They fully support the sovereingty of God in salvation.
If some scriptures lead people to believe that they have a geniune choice and other scriptures teach that the choice has already been made, then the scripture is deceptive.
Calvinists on this board have said that believers start out Arminian and that we should evangelize like an Arminian. And even that certain passages lead one to think like an Arminian. It is these arguments I am addressing.
I have admitted that some of the revelation of God is not completely clear to our finite minds.
Translation: Some of the revelation is confusing even to believers.
Would God make his revelation so unclear as to lead people to believe a lie, only to straighten them out once they were enlightened by the dogma of Calvinism? I don't think so!
That does not mean I jettison the revelation of God. It means that I readjust my thinking.
Yeah, readjust my thinking from logical to completely illogical. From the Bible is clear and consistant to its "not clear to our finite minds." From thinking we have a choice to thinking the choice was already made.
I am not asking anyone to "jettison the revelation of God." I'm asking you to interpret it within the context in which it was written, which just so happens to be admist the hardening of God's chosen nation, along with the choosing of his remnant from that nation, and the effectual calling of his apostles. All of which you take and misapply to a universal soteriology of mankind.
God is not the author of confusion to be sure. But since Calvinism is not confusing, that doesn't apply. The only thing that makes it confusing is when people don't let the text say what it says.
That is simply untrue. Take Calvinism into any healthy, fruitful church and watch what happens. I admit a church that starts with Calvinism will not have as many problems, but I know very few of these churches that are bearing much fruit.
Some on this board have admitted that some of the teachings are "troubling." I remember when I was a Calvinist how troubling many of my beleifs were, eventhough I defended them as if my life depended on it. "Troubling" or "Confusing" its all semantics, Calvinism creates problems that our minds and our hearts abhore, even as believers. That doesn't sound like peace, it sounds like confusion.
You have misdefined and misappplied the hardening. What else is there to say?? You have created a doctrine of hardening that has no real relevance. The hardening of the nation is probably not until after Matthew 12 and the unpardonable sin which is probably well after the events of John 6.
What??? You believe that the hardening of Israel didn't begin until following the events of John 6? Do you have some support for this view or is it just something you are throwing out there as a smoke screen?
Your doctrinal creation is simply not satisfying to the text.
No, its not satisfying to Calvinism which is why you reject it. Instead, why don't you find some scriptural reasons to reject my views of Israel's hardening, instead of just declaring them "unsatificatory" to you.
Have a great day.
