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20 Questions For Calvinists

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by w_fortenberry, Mar 26, 2003.

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  1. w_fortenberry

    w_fortenberry New Member

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    TheTravellingMinstrel,

    Christ's task was to destroy the works of the devil (I John 3:8). Why would He have been sent to destroy something which He created and from which He receives glory?

    Who gave them to Him?

    That firefighter will be found guilty in a court of law if he chooses to save only one man when he is quite capable of saving both. He will still be found guilty even if the man left in the fire were an escaped convict previously sentenced to death. The Bible itself condemns those who knowingly allow others to die when they are quite capable of saving them (Ezekiel 3, 18, and 33).
     
    #21 w_fortenberry, Mar 31, 2003
  2. w_fortenberry

    w_fortenberry New Member

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    Russell55,

    Could you please explain this in light of Romans 5:12?
     
    #22 w_fortenberry, Mar 31, 2003
  3. w_fortenberry

    w_fortenberry New Member

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    Russell55,

    How can one knowingly choose unrighteousness when he is incapable of choosing righteousness?

    If "faith cometh by hearing," then have all those who have heard received faith?

    Does God want them to be obedient?
     
    #23 w_fortenberry, Mar 31, 2003
  4. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Being a member of the elect means that God will bring you to salvation. He will, at some point in your lifetime, begin to work His salvation within you. And the good work He begins, he completes (Phil 1:4). The nature of the elect person is changed by the work of the Holy Spirit (he is born again) and then God continues the work of sanctification within him, working more and more righteousness until finally, his redemption is complete on the last day.

    So the elect person is not saved regardless of any sin he commits, rather, he is kept from a lifestyle of sin by the power of God through faith.

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


    The elect won't bring forth evil fruit because of the indwelling Spirit, whose fruit is love, joy, peace, etc. This fruit of the Spirit will become more and more evident in their lives as God completes the work He began in them.

    See my response to Bill on this very question on this very thread.


    The sort of faith that is produced by the Holy Spirit within us. Faith that endures, that loves God, that desires to please God, that trust God to fulfill His promises, that actually sees "unseen things" as things of reality. Faith that is originated and completed by Jesus himself.

    Realistic assessment of one's gift (thing soberly) comes from knowing to what extent one has the faith required to exercise certain gifts. See verse 6:

    ...let us prophecy in proportion to our faith...

    and also the sort of parallel passage in Ephesians 4:

    But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift...And he gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists....

    It doesn't say "every man", it says "every man that is among you." Every one of the brethren (verse 1), every one of the members of the body (verse 4), to each one of these God has dealt a measure of faith and "different gifts according to the grace that is given to us."
    "Every man" is specifically modified in the text to include only everyone of a certain group.

    [ April 01, 2003, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
    #24 russell55, Apr 1, 2003
  5. w_fortenberry

    w_fortenberry New Member

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    Russell55,

    Is the redemption of those currently in heaven still incomplete?

    What about those who claim to have been saved after a long life of sin?

    The verses you provided (I Peter 1:3-5) do not state that the elected individual "is kept from a lifestyle of sin by the power of God through faith." Rather they state that those who have been begotten are kept by the power of God which was applied to them when they accepted His salvation. The same power that worked through their faith when they were saved is also able to keep them unto the day of His appearing. This passage speaks of the security of the believer not of the perfecting of the elect.

    Are you saying that the elect will not produce evil fruit before regeneration?

    Are the following verses speaking of the fruit of the Spirit being produced in the elect, or do they speak of evil fruits produced by the flesh of sinners saved by grace?
    Gal 5:15, 17, 19-21, 26, 6:1, 7-8, Rev. 2:4, 14-16, 20-23, 3:2, 15-16, Psalm 51.

    Bill's question was "Who chose to allow Adam's sin to impute guilt and damnation upon the entire world?" My question can be stated as, "Did Satan choose to sin or did God cause him to sin, and did Adam choose to sin or did God cause him to sin? Bill was asking about imputation, whereas I am asking about initial cause.

    Is there any faith that is not produced by the Holy Spirit?
     
    #25 w_fortenberry, Apr 4, 2003
  6. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Is the redemption of those currently in heaven still incomplete?</font>[/QUOTE]Well, what do you think it means when is says, "salvation ready to be revealed in the last time?" What do you think is the work already begun in us that will not be completed "until the day of Christ Jesus"?


    I didn't state this as well as I ought to have. Once the elect are brought to faith they are kept from a lifestyle of sin. Before they are brought to faith, they are "children of wrath" just like everyone else.

    See my response to the question above. The elect produce the same evil fruit as everyone else before they are brought to faith. The elect are all sinners who have been or will be saved by grace.

    Satan and Adam both chose to sin of their own free will. The direct cause of sin in the world is not God.

    There is no genuine faith that is not produced by the Holy Spirit. There is sometimes something that appears to us, who can't see inside individual people, to be belief, but that over the course of time proves not to be genuine faith.
     
    #26 russell55, Apr 7, 2003
  7. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Could you please explain this in light of Romans 5:12? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't understand the question. Romans 5:12 tells us that because Adam sinned, we all sin. I don't see how that contradicts in any way what I wrote.
     
    #27 russell55, Apr 7, 2003
  8. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    How can one knowingly choose unrighteousness when he is incapable of choosing righteousness?</font>[/QUOTE]Incapability comes from the extreme distaste the natural man has for the truth. Incapability arises from the evilness of men's hearts. They know the truth, but they detest it, because their hearts are evil. Inabiltiy arises from the extent of the evil in each individual's heart. Men can't choose righteousness because they don't want to and left to their own devices they never will want to.

    Nope. Faith comes when the word of the gospel (hearing) meets the inner work of the Holy Spirit. It is this inner work that makes the word of the gospel no longer foolishness or a stumbling block, but the "power and wisdom of God."

     
    #28 russell55, Apr 7, 2003
  9. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Oooh...

    Deleted due to deja vu.
     
    #29 russell55, Apr 7, 2003
  10. w_fortenberry

    w_fortenberry New Member

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    It is not the salvation that is kept ready to be revealed, but those that are begotten are kept ready to be revealed in the last time. cf. vs. 7

    The work already begun in the believer is the production of fruits of righteousness. cf. vss. 5, 7, and 11

    Note also that the verse does not say that the work will not be completed until the day of Christ but that it will be performed until the day of Jesus Christ. Thus Paul was proclaiming his confidence that God would never stop producing fruits of righteousness in the lives of the believers at Philippi.

    As I explained in my previous post regarding this verse..."This passage speaks of the security of the believer not of the perfecting of the elect."

    But the afore mentioned verses refer to sins which occur after regeneration. How is this in keeping with the statement that "the elect won't bring forth evil fruit because of the indwelling Spirit"?

    Could they have chosen not to sin?

    The Bible says that "the devils also believe and tremble." Is this genuine faith produced by the Holy Spirit?

    Am I unable to eat sauerkraut if I have and extreme distaste for it? No. Neither does a man's distaste for righteousness prevent him from choosing to do what is right. Man has been gifted with the ability to do that which he does not enjoy doing. If I want to eat sauerkraut, I can eat it regardless of my distaste and have eaten it on several occasions.


    The Bible says that the Spirit is received by the hearing of faith. Gal. 3:2, Acts 2:38, Acts 19:1-7, Eph. 1:13
     
    #30 w_fortenberry, Apr 13, 2003
  11. w_fortenberry

    w_fortenberry New Member

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    According to this verse, just as all men have sinned so also all men are able to receive the gift of righteousness. Thus, though man can do nothing to save himself, God has provided himself a lamb in Christ Jesus whereby all can have everlasting life. Those who perish do not do so because they have sinned, for all have sinned. Rather, they perish because they deny the gift of the Son, for "if we deny him, he also will deny us."
     
    #31 w_fortenberry, Apr 13, 2003
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    The him in the verse you have quoted is correctly identified as the Lamb of God, the us is speaking to believers not to all of humanity. Humanity views itself as denying nothing. This then is speaking to denying him in service etc.

    This is also true: '...he cannot deny himself...'

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
    #32 Frogman, Apr 13, 2003
  13. w_fortenberry

    w_fortenberry New Member

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    Frogman,

    Thank you for responding to a subpoint of my post. Before I address your response, I would like to know if you can shed any light on a Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 5:18 as quoted.

    How then does He deny us?
     
    #33 w_fortenberry, Apr 14, 2003
  14. dpenguin

    dpenguin <img src=/dawn.gif>

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    Pastor Larry - if your reply was meant to be from a Calvinist point of view, I would like to know, how does that fit in with "irresistable grace"? By that point, one CAN NOT choose not to come to Christ - they are irresistably drawn... right?
     
    #34 dpenguin, Apr 21, 2003
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