Max Lucado.

Somebody may have quoted this already but I didn't remember it:

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he*** feared;****8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 5:6-9 (KJV)

Murph

 

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=002419;p=3#000044

 

I wasn't aware that fearing God was the sinful part. If that is all that can be said about Christ fearing, then the lack of evidence is against those who agree with Lucado's statement. Fearing God is necessary. Fearing anything else is sin (or at the very least a result of sin which Jesus was not hindered by).

 

Say what? So if I fear speaking in front of an audience I am sinning? That's a new idea to me.

 

In a sense you are Ken. Because you are suppose to trust God, and he will lead you in what you do and say.

Sherrie

 

Say what? So if I fear speaking in front of an audience I am sinning? That's a new idea to me. </font>[/QUOTE]Not anymore.

 

That's okay. I already knew I sin 24/7 anyway.

 

A few pages back you said that Jesus never feared but now you seem unconcerned when a verse clearly states that he did :
To say that he was ever fearful though is pure conjecture if not a more serious charge.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whats up with that
Murph

 

Every day life scenarios based on Preach's faulty logic:

A ferocious dog breaks its chain and makes a mad dash at me or one of my children .... fear .... SIN!

I am swimming in the ocean and I see the fin of a shark about 5 yards away ... fear ... SIN!

I am at the mall and I turn around and one of my children is no longer in sight ... fear ... SIN!

I receive a phone call that my wife has been in a serious automobile accident ... fear ... sin!

I step off the curb w/o noticing a speeding car headed in my direction, suddenly I see the car headed straight for me ... fear ... sin!

I am mountain climbing and my rope gives way and I am dangling on the edge of a cliff ... fear ... sin.

I am a soldier on the frontlines when suddenly I realize we are under heavy fire, friends are dying around me, I seem trapped with no escape ... fear ... sin.


It doesn't take long to realize the absurdity of the claim that fear of anything other than God is a sin. Once again, fear is a natural human emotion. Jesus was 100% human. You draw the conclusions here.

 

Murph, I since the discussion was not about godly fear but fear in the sense that Lucado used it, I did not see the relevance of using it. I hope that clears things up for you.

SBC, I would rather not try to sift Scripture through your personal stories.

Did not Christ say that we are not to fear those who can destroy our bodies but to fear him (God) who can destroy both body and soul? Now, since you are the Ph.D. student, explain that in light of your personal stories.

 

What Preach said: SBC, I would rather not try to sift Scripture through your personal stories.

What Preach means: I have no reasonable response to these real life situations that contradict a proposal I made earlier without giving it much genuine thought.

Did not Christ say that we are not to fear those who can destroy our bodies but to fear him (God) who can destroy both body and soul? Now, since you are the Ph.D. student, explain that in light of your personal stories.

Nice attempt to twist the text to fit your feeble attempt to dehumanize Jesus.

This text has to do with whom one should or should not fear and not the emotion fear itself. In other words, Jesus is not saying: "It is a sin to be afraid." What Jesus is saying is: there is no real reason to fear those who can bring our existence to an end. They cannot control your ultimate destiny. He does not say the fear itself is an illegitimate human emotion that is sinful.

In the overall context, Jesus is warning against the disciples dissembling themselves because of an unwarranted fear of those who can only kill their bodies. In other words, don't allow a fear of humans to cause you to yield to the temptation of denying the One who controls eternity (by words or actions).

The warning is not about being afraid. It simply puts fear into proper perspective.

Fear should lead us to trust in God. For example, the Psalmist declares: "When I am afraid, I will trust in you." David assumes fear. And as a result of this fear, David learned to trust God. He is not forbidding fear. He simply says that when it comes, it should lead one to trust God.

Jesus in the Garden is the classic illustration here. When he appears to be afraid (remove this cup from me), what happens? He displays an uwavering trust in God (nevertheless not my will but yours be done).

Conclusion: it is a false generalization to say that fear is a sin. Fear in and of itself is simply a human emotion that comes from being finite and limited. However the response fear generates in the life of the believer can create God-dependence or self-dependence (and subsequently can lead to faith or sin).

I assumed you would not deal with the real-life situations b/c even you can recognize the absurdity of your previous statements. Fear is a natural human emotion. It is not a sin matter. Thus the initial question (did Jesus experience fear as a completely finite human?) has yet to be answered negatively.

At this point, I guess you will probably drop out of the discussion (if you follow your typical pattern).

 

1. Actually, I did think about it. I realize your need to say such things so they divert peoples attention.

2. Christ was/is fully God and fully man. I have no desire to dehumanize him. I just don't wish to paint the wrong picture by adding to him because it makes me feel better.

3. You are merely arguing from speculation and silence (two of the strongest forms of argument ). It is an explicit statement. Do not fear those who can destroy the body. Now either we take this to mean what we want it to (as you have done), or we accept the plain meaning (as I have done).

4. The fact remains that they are not to fear.

5. I certainly understand your position, but disagree. Now, call that whatever you want (avoiding the issue or dodging it or not thinking through it), that is up to you. I would like to see a little more discussion and fewer attempts at ad hominem.

6. When fear exists, the solution is to trust in God. So, if faith in God removes fear, then fear must not be something that we should have. Think it through SBC.

7. What a jump that is! There is so much fear in Christ that when he stood up, he spoke two words and the entire mod fell at his speach. Very convincing.

8. Perfect love casts out all fear. Is that a true statement or not? Perhaps you could use your hermenuetic on that verse and tell me how it doesn't really mean what it says.

9. Again, we disagree on a fundamental level, therefore we will not see eye to eye on the various circumstances here.

10. I hope that made you feel better. I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

 

1john 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

 

you're in a little boat with 11 other disciples and your sleeping master, being tossed about in a violent storm.. fear.. SIN?

yes.

matthew 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

[ March 25, 2003, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: timothy 1969 ]

 

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he*** feared;****


Good grief indeed.

Murph

 

Murphy, that is the verse that indicates his fear was toward God. I think it has already been mentioned by both me and Aaron that we believe that is acceptable and not the same thing as what Lucado described.

 

Christ was/is fully God and fully man. I have no desire to dehumanize him. I just don't wish to paint the wrong picture by adding to him because it makes me feel better.

So maintaining that Jesus experienced a natural human emotion is adding to him??? You have yet to answer the central question here: how can Christ be fully human and not experience a natural human emotion?

You are merely arguing from speculation and silence (two of the strongest forms of argument). It is an explicit statement. Do not fear those who can destroy the body. Now either we take this to mean what we want it to (as you have done), or we accept the plain meaning (as I have done).

Your words here are almost comical. Since when is dealing with a text in its context arguing from speculation and silence??? It does not matter what we want or accept, what matters is what Jesus meant when He spoke the words. The "plain" meaning cannot be understood outside of its context. Come on Preach ... you do not prescribe to the type of hermeneutics you are espousing here. If so, we had better be on the lookout for God's eyes running around the earth

If you are dealing strictly with a "plain" meaning, is fear acceptable in a case where one's life is not in jeopardy? Be consistent here.

The fact remains that they are not to fear

By leaving out part of the admonition you fall prey to the very accusation you make above

When fear exists, the solution is to trust in God. So, if faith in God removes fear, then fear must not be something that we should have.

Did they teach logic where you went to school?

There are many situations in life that generate or increase one's faith (the entire gospel of John was written to increase faith). That being the case, there are many things in life that cause us to either excersise faith in God or depend upon self. That does not make those faith instigators "sinful". As David said, fear will come. It is a given. What happens after fear arrives is the real issue here.

What a jump that is! There is so much fear in Christ that when he stood up, he spoke two words and the entire mod fell at his speach. Very convincing.

Since Jesus has already prayed the "not my will but thine be done" prayer, your point is moot. Besides, I did not say Christ was afraid of the mob or even of death. I simply said his words "remove this cup" reveal the full humanity of Christ. Would you care to enlighten us with the "plain" meaning as to what Jesus meant by these words?

BTW, you need to go do some homework on the reaction of the crowd.

Perfect love casts out all fear. Is that a true statement or not? Perhaps you could use your hermenuetic on that verse and tell me how it doesn't really mean what it says.

It is an absolutely true statement. Read further and you will discover the fear described -- the fear of judgment. You added the word "all". It is nowhere to be found. But by doing so, you change the text. John is writing to believers who are being perfected in God's love; therefore, there is no reason to fear the day of judgment. We can have confidence on that day.

Come on Preach. You are either not thinking or you are sinking quickly.

Again, we disagree on a fundamental level, therefore we will not see eye to eye on the various circumstances here.

Since you have failed to address the various circumstances, we don't know what you are thinking. Remember theology cannot be removed from the world of practicality. It is so easy to make blanket statements about certain subject matters (such as fear) w/o acknowledging the Scripture nowhere calls the emotion fear sinful.

I ask you again: if you see your child is about to be hit by a speeding car, would it be a sin for you to be afraid??? Can you answer this question yes or no? We will see.

 

SBC's premise is that involuntary reactions are not sin, however, that presupposes an unpolluted nature. Naturally he transfers not UNfallen human nature (which he cannot comprehend) but his own fallen human nature to Christ.

The Scriptures tell us plainly that an evil tree (our fallen nature) CANNOT yield good fruit, and there ain't no such thing as neutral fruit.

A lot of foolish talk in this thread about "normal" human this and "normal" human that. Christ was fully human, but He was not a "normal" human. He was virgin-born for one thing. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, SBC, but I don't think that was the norm in the First Century. He was a perfect, sinless man. Not quite the norm there either. As a sinless man, He was One who had perfect trust in His Father, and perfect love toward God and toward man. Fear of any thing, circumstance or person, except God, would be a sign of distrust and weakness. In short, it would be a sign of unbelief.

SBC, despite your violence to the Scriptures, the plain reading of Matthew 10:28 yields the interpretation given it by Preach and I.

There is a straightforward command of Christ that says "Fear not..."

He did not say, "Do not allow your fear to, blah, blah, blah..." or whatever other vomit you want to spew.

Here's a dose of real life for you.

You've been caught translating the Scriptures into English. The stake is raised and the faggots are gathered...fear...SIN.

You're caught praying in your bedchamber. The king has you dropped into a den of lions...fear...SIN.

You've just been falsely and illegally arrested in a garden, you're sentenced to be crucified...fear...SIN.