Same song, same verse...

And when the Calvinist realizes that scriptures refute what they believe, they accuse the Armenians of false doctrine then run to places where they can gang up on Armenians. You see Sturgman the playing field is pretty well level between Calvinists and Armenians, neither holds an advantage in God's eyes. The scriptures tell us, all of us, believers and unbelievers alike, that Jesus came to seek and to save the lost, then tells us we are all equally lost. Not one of us is less lost than any other, and not one of us has an advantage that would make God favor us over all others.

The scriptures clearly say that whosoever believeth in Him (Jesus) shall not perish but have everlasting life. and those who believe are not condemned but those who do not believe are condemned already through their unbelief.

The difficulty on this an all other BBSs rests in the individual personalities of the players. So wipe the tears away, quit pouting and join in again in this lively debate no matter how repetitious it becomes. And no, it is not a matter of life and death, because God gives life to all who believe in His son, even on his name.

 

Sure sounded like pouting to me.

You accuse, with a tone of superiority, the Arminians and any others who disagree with your interpretation of scripture which is the same thing that you, a Calvinist, do. Then you post as you did here.

Give us a break, the playing field is level, neither side has an advantage over the other. After the game is over both teams celebrate equally for all believers go the same place and for the same reason..."I believe in Jesus the Son of God, the Messiah".

I don't know how old you are, but if you haven't reached your sixth decade, I am your elder, so knock off the patronizing commentary. If you have reached your sixth decade, you have my humble apology for my less than respectful remarks. I was just exercising my God given free will.

 

Sturgman,
You are quite fond of posting that Romans 3 makes your point that man is not capable of seeking God. I have great difficulty with your position because that is not at all what Romans 3 says. Paul agrees more with me than he does with you. Paul agrees that man is capable, but that man doesn't. Which is a whole lot different than man is not capable.

Neither does David in the Psalms 14:1-7 agree with you.

Where in this passage does David say that man is incapable of seeking God? You'd do well to scratch this off as a proof text for your point of view.

 

I haven't yet found the part in scripture where Paul agrees that man is capable. Everything I seem to find verifies that man is incapable.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: "neither can he know them" , because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 8:7-9 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, "neither indeed can be". 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If the scripture so clearly states that "None seeketh after God", but you say that you were given a choice to seek after God. Who do you think I am going to believe? I know that we have the continuing argument of whether "all" means "all", but I would hope that we can on common ground agree that "none" means none, nada, wala, zit....

 

I think both Calvinists and Arminians are ignoring biblical truths.

For example, Jesus loved this man who rejected Him.

Mark 10:21-22, "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions."

Jesus taking the little children up in his arms and blessing them. Jesus never seemed to discriminate in His ministry.

Mark 10:16, "And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them."

Can a Calvinist answer those texts without burning me at the stake? Okay, I really am kidding. But seriously, we need to start discussing these things with a Christian spirit.

 

Jesus' actions are not proof of freewill or whatever you are trying to prove.

Jesus was set an example of how we should live.
Jesus did not act, in all ways, like God, and you cannot say that because Jesus acts this was, then God must act this way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Jesus is not God. I am just saying that how Jesus acts does not equal how God acts.

Jesus was humble, but was God humble, No, God is the king of the universe, He is not humble.

 

The Calvanist statement about Paul's Romans 3:10&11 statement is that Man is not capable.

The Psalms 14:1-7 passage that Paul quoted speaks of the will of man and not his capability.

The conclusion one must come to acknowledge is that the Calvinist statement is false!

 

Sturgman,

You go way back if you invented the wheel; and I thought I might be one of the older writers on this Baptist Board.

Ray

 

I would say Calvinists are guilty of doing the same thing if a new arguement is presented to you. If you all don't have a "pat answer" ready to shoot down an arguement you all use the same ploys everyone else on this post does. You use sarcasm, label and dismiss or just ignore the arguement all together. Look at my arguements on the post titled, "Calvinisms fatal flaw" and see if that's not the case. (Frogman is the only one I see making an attempt to address the issues, but he is doing it in such a way as to understand my position, no one has refuted it.)

Bro. Bill

 

What Biblical truth are we ignoring here? That Jesus loved him? Or that Jesus loved and blessed children? If anyone is ignoring these truths, it is not because they do not acknowledge that they are true. Like me, they probably don't see the relevance to the issues of free will.

It would be an entirely different story if the passage in Mark read, "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and hoping he would choose of his own free will to do the right thing, Jesus said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions, and although it made him sad, nevertheless, he chose of his own free will to be rich instead of be saved."

But all that extra stuff is what you or someone else might put there. Whether or not this is what makes sense to you is irrelevant, because it is added material you perceive is inferred. But it's not in the text, and there is no other supporting scripture that would make it reasonable to interpret it into the text.