Determining God's will

Well, guys, my experience has been different, and so has Barry's. It's not audible voices. It's not emotions. It's allowing the Lord to direct every minute of everyday, as the Father did with the Son. We are to be like Him, are we not? Therefore we must look to the Father for everything.

I do know that there is no detail of my life too small for Him not to be interested in if I want to include Him. And I do.

 

Helen said:

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, . . .

Is this verse saying that since we are in Christ, therefore we must seek some sort of inward impression for guidance in every decision we make?

First, it says that conformity to Christ-likeness is the result of God's foreknowledge. It is described here as a gift, not a command.

Second, Paul tells us what Christ-likeness is. The first 11 chapters of Romans are about how we are put in a right relationship with God. The last 4 chapters are the result of justification. The application is this: If we are foreknown by God, if we are predestined to conformity to Christ, if we are justified, then this is what the result ought to be:
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• Living sacrificially, and abandoning wordly patterns of thought (12:1-8)</font>
• Living in love, and at peace with others (12:9-21)</font>
• Obedience to the civil authorities (13:1-7)</font>
• Living lives of love and moral uprightness (13:8-14)</font>
• Not passing judgment on other believers because of trivialities; rather, bearing with them (14:1-15:4)</font>
• Living in unity and acceptance (15:5-13)</font>

Note this is a list of moral imperatives. In other words, Christ-likeness does not consist of "finding the will of God" for every single choice we could make; it consists of living morally, according to God's revealed will. (The same could be said of Paul's teaching on being led by the Spirit (Gal. 5:26); the "fruit of the Spirit" are also moral attributes.)

John 8:28-29

OK, but what did it mean for Christ to "do what pleases" the Father? Is every aspect of Christ's obedience to the Father something that we are meant to emulate?

First, for Christ to do the Father's will, he must have obeyed the Law, because he was a man. But this is not some inward "leading," it is God's revealed moral will, already incumbent upon every man.

Second, Christ the Messiah was foretold by the Old Testament. Christ fulfilled all the prophecies. Those are not meant for us to imitate.

Third, Christ as a prophet must have received direct revelation from God. I am neither prophet nor Messiah; therefore, I do not have any reason to expect similar revelations.

Fourth, the love and fellowship that passed between Father and Son, the first and second persons of the Trinity, is totally beyond human ability and experience. The relationship between Father and Son cannot be imitated by men; therefore it is not normative for Christians.

We are told to imitate Christ, but this does not mean that we are to imitate the relationship between God the Father and God the Son. Just because Christ had a close communion with the Father does not mean we also ought to get messages from God. Rather, imitation of Christ means following his example as pertains to his morals and his character.

 

Helen said:

Well, guys, my experience has been different, and so has Barry's.

Well, there's the rub. Scripture, not experience, is the rule of faith for Christians.

Scripture must validate experience. Experience does not interpret Scripture.

 

You rejected some of the Scriptures I posted and ignored others. What about becoming like Christ, who did and said nothing He was not directed to do and say by the Father?

Granted, also, that we hear our Shepherd's voice apart and away from all others. But isn't it also important to follow, and go where He leads? Isn't is also important to learn to obey every step of the way?

 

Helen said:

You rejected some of the Scriptures I posted and ignored others.

No, I rejected your interpretation of them, and I ignored none.

On the other hand, judging by your response below, it is you who ignored everything I said up to this point:

What about becoming like Christ, who did and said nothing He was not directed to do and say by the Father?

I already answered this question. The relationship between Father and Son is unique and beyond human ability to emulate; moreover, when Scripture speaks of imitating Christ, it speaks of following his moral example.

Granted, also, that we hear our Shepherd's voice apart and away from all others. But isn't it also important to follow, and go where He leads?

I already answered this question. Following the Shepherd means living according to his moral rules, not asking his permission for every single thing we do lest we be "out of the centre of God's will."

Isn't is also important to learn to obey every step of the way?

I already answered this question. Biblical obedience is to God's revealed moral will, not subjective, inward "leading."

 

By way of illustration, the following parody comes from the book Decision Making and the Will of God by Garry Friesen (Multnomah, 1980) pp. 165-67:

And the moral of the story:

 

I don't read anything in the Bible about following Christ's moral example.

I read about following and obeying; listening for His voice and paying attention.

I read

Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.

and this:

I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day, you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

...My prayer is not for them [the disciples] alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you love me before the creation of the world.

Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I now you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in then, and that I myself may be in them.

If I am in Christ, and He is in me, and if He is in the Father and obeyed the Father in everything He ever said and did here while among us, should I not be doing the same...with Him in me? How could I do differently if, indeed, I am in Him and He in me?

 

Helen said:

I don't read anything in the Bible about following Christ's moral example.

. . . ?

Come on. Open your eyes, Helen! Did you actually look, or did you just pull that assertion out of thin air?

The Bible teaches us to be:

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• humble (John 13:15; Phil 2:5-8)</font>
• generous (2 Cor. 8:9)</font>
• forgiving (Eph. 4:32; Col. 3:13)</font>
• loving (Eph. 5:1-2)</font>
• obedient (Phil. 2:5-8)</font>
• persevering (Heb. 12:2-3)</font>
• holy (1 Pet. 1:15-16)</font>
• submissive (1 Pet. 2:21-23)</font>
• pure (1 John 3:3)</font>
• righteous (1 John 3:7)</font>

specifically because Christ set the example for us.

 

We cannot simply imitate Christ on our own. We must be indwelt by Him, as per Romans 8:9.

Now, you may want to draw the line as to how far you will be in Christ or imitate Him, but I don't see where any line can be drawn. The relationship Christ had with the Father while He was incarnate was total. If we are being conformed to be like Him, I cannot see where anyone can say 'This far I will go and no further.' He looked to the Father for everything. We are learning to do the same.

I write 'we' because I have read a good part of this thread to Barry over the phone and he and I are talking about it as I type -- I have the headset on. He mentioned Ransom's responses to the passages I mentioned as all 'special pleadings.' I had not thought of them that way, but Barry is right. There is a sum total in the message, though, that all the special pleadings or individual 'reinterpretations' cannot evade.

By the way, I did not interpret any of those passages. I simply quoted them.

 

Helen said:

We cannot simply imitate Christ on our own. We must be indwelt by Him, as per Romans 8:9.

Beside the point.

Now, you may want to draw the line as to how far you will be in Christ or imitate Him, but I don't see where any line can be drawn. The relationship Christ had with the Father while He was incarnate was total.

Uh, yeah, that's because the Son is "of one Being with the Father." We cannot attain to "total" relationship because we, unlike them, are not of divine substance.

In other words, claiming that close a relationship with God is tantamount to claiming godhood itself- a blasphemous notion, to be sure.

I write 'we' because I have read a good part of this thread to Barry over the phone and he and I are talking about it as I type -- I have the headset on. He mentioned Ransom's responses to the passages I mentioned as all 'special pleadings.'

Really. Do you or Barry have a better exegesis of those passages, in context, that supports your model of divine guidance?

If so, present it. If not, Barry's dismissal of my posts is so much yakwash, and you can tell him Scott McClare said so.

By the way, I did not interpret any of those passages. I simply quoted them.

Don't make me laugh. You stated a position. You cited those passages in support of your position. That, in itself, is an interpretation.

 

I think I have said all that needs to be said.

 

Is that a tacit admission that you cannot provide a better reading than mine of your own proof-texts?

Thank you. Per my previous invitation, please feel free to inform your husband what I think of his opinion.

 

Telepathy v. non-telepathy. That is the essence of this thread. One must believe in oneself to trust telepathy.

 

Ransom, I think the character of your posts, especially the recent ones, says far more than anything else.

Alcott, it has nothing to do with telepathy. If I actually trusted myself, I wouldn't need to follow Christ, would I?

 

Thank you, Helen. Since you have now chosen to set your sights on my personality rather than my theology, I take this as further evidence that you have been refuted.

 

Ransom, your posts are good and you are very strong and confident and I like that. This post is excellent in it's scriptural content and you have the ability to get folks to look in the right direction. Nevertheless, I have something to say about the appearance of your written delivery.

Helen's posts are good and she is very strong and confident. I've been following Helen and her personal story. I know her history a little and it is helping me to understand her messages.

Regarding this post: It's delivery (on the surface) made me feel uncomfortable. At this point in this thread, it matters not to me (the reader and fellow participant) who is right or wrong, but what does matter to me is how gracious you are to one another. Both of you, one to another.

When you say "Come on. Open your eyes, Helen!" Do you realize that you did that publicly? In front of all of us? Do you realize how that comes across? Even if you are 100% right and everybody else is wrong, this post hurts my feelings on the basis of temperment. Again, your content helped even me look in the right direction.

I don't know if you had tears in your eyes and if your voice was trembling or whether you struggled over making such a powerful personally directed reply.

You know what? When it is all said and done, I will be remembered by how I treated folks. Not whether I was more right than someone else.

I've given you much praise, I've done it publicly in front of all to see. Written communication is not the same as face to face. You are so powerful and have so much to offer that it is worth mentioning.

Dave.

 

David Mark said:

When you say "Come on. Open your eyes, Helen!" Do you realize that you did that publicly? In front of all of us? Do you realize how that comes across?

Yes, I do, and I am glad to see that you did not misunderstand.

 

I guess I haven't expressed myself very well. I apologize for that. It's not a 'letting go and letting God' or simply something based on experience. Being serious about following Christ is an active, moving thing. But just like salvation itself, can you really explain it to someone who hasn't been saved? There comes a time when the joy and the peace Jesus promised actually comes into your life. You experience it. That does not mean it's experientially based. It means Jesus was right and you experienced that He was right. But He was right long before you experienced it! Nevertheless, how can you explain either His rightness or your experience to someone else who is on 'the other side of the fence'?

What I'm talking about seems to be like that. And maybe I'm only using the wrong words.

I am not my own. I was bought with a price. And I have not only a Savior, but a LORD of my life -- Someone who indwells me, disciplines me (Hebrews 12), leads me.

It is not simply a matter, as many here have seemed to say (or maybe I am misunderstanding them) of avoiding doing wrong -- which is essentially what following the Law is. It is a matter of doing what is right and best at the time. And for that we must look to God consistently, for only He knows. He knows what words might hurt and what words might heal, for He knows the heart of the person you are speaking to. He knows what actions will help and encourage, for He knows the life of the person you are interacting with.

And how are we to be part of His work in these lives if we do not look to Him every moment for His guidance? How are we to show the character of Christ if we are only attempting to imitate Him? Why should we not simply be the glove in which His Hand operates?

I cannot, by myself, 'imitate Christ.' I cannot somehow adopt all those qualities Ransom quotes from the Bible. They are the results of the Holy Spirit living within me. I have a lovely calligraphy of some words to a Steve Green song my daughter did for me:

"Any strength I have,
Any good I do,
Comes from the life I found in You;
so in all I am,
And all I do,
I give the glory to You!"

Do we give glory to God because what we ourselves decide to do accidently turns out to be something half-way positive? Well, yes, we do that, too. But isn't it better to look to Him to show us what is absolutely best in any situation?

The silly rolling the dice game I did with my kids when they were younger taught more lessons than I ever imagined. I was just trying to con my kids into helping me clean house and get chores done! God did something else when I turned it over to Him that way. He taught the kids that He was willing to be part of every part of their lives, and that He is not a stern, somewhat nasty and tempermental God 'up there somewhere', but that He is here and now and caring and loving and dependable. That He knows we need fun and rest.

Did we let go and let God? I suppose we did in that sense. But it was us who did the work to get the house clean! There was no sitting back about that!

There was no question that it was right to clean the house. There was no question that it was right to train my children to work as a team and take pride in getting the proper job done.

The question was how to do all that. That is where God can be invited in or not. We invited Him in, and He came.

There is no question today but that I must run errands later. But the man is also coming to fix a sliding glass door that won't lock anymore (rollers worn out???). He will be here somewhere between 11 and 12. So what is the best plan for the day? I know I need a nap, and I prefer to make only one trip out for all my errands. So MY plan was to try to jam it all into this morning as soon as Chris is off to school and then get back by 11.

That would get it done. It would leave me a bit frazzled, but it would get it done. But frazzled is not the best way, especially to start the week. So I look to God. What to do?

And the answer was simple and clear: do the close by stuff this morning and then be home in time for the man to come quite easily. Then I can nap afterwards (having arthritis now, that nap really helps get through the rest of the day). I can go down hill (where Costco is!) tomorrow morning for the cheeses and such that only they carry around here. That will also leave me time to finish (eat your hearts out!) any Christmas shopping I have at a nearby shopping center.

How easy is that? Common sense when I look at it, but definitely not part of my own plan to make it all accomplished in one trip.

It's that simple. No voices. Just a thought. And like any matter of following a lead, I can obey or disobey.

Sometimes the matter is not one of 'common sense' at all, but goes entirely against what seems the 'best' way to go about something. And so I ask God to close doors I am not supposed to walk through, so that I will only have HIS choice of where to go. I don't have to pray that, but I do get tired of heading off in the wrong direction as consistently as I am capable of on my own.

All this is in attempted explanation of what I am talking about. No voices. No telepathy. Sometimes it is a little weird to have a brand new thought sort of pop in, but I have learned to look up, to ask for confirmation when I need it, to read the Bible constantly, and always, always, to try at least to get my own self out of the way enough to let Him live HIS life through me, and not simply try to get His approval for the life I think I want to lead.

I hope that helps a bit.

 

The bottom line is that God moves in mysterious ways, HIS wonders to perform. Prolly not two of us will relate how God called us to where we are in the same manner.

A careful study of scripture shows He used a mule, He used the elements, He used a burning bush...He used whatever it took to get His message across.

I keep going back to the statement....Look after your spiritual relationship and doesn't it all boil down to that? Nevermind how God does it. If we are right with God, He WILL DO IT, and we WILL KNOW.

I think about my marriage. My wife and I have lived together so long that we begin to think what the other is thinking. It is scary at times. It really just means that we are "in tune" with each other. Our relationship with God is like that, isn't it? We are fine tuned to know what He wants and expects of us. Call it experience, or call it emotion. It does not matter. God has the right to use whatever means it takes to have us travel His road. Frankly, I am far too busy doing the things I know to trouble about the things I do not know.

Cheers,

Jim