Would you give up your rock?

Actually I can't remember where I heard that, might have been in a news paper. But my biology teacher two years ago confirmed it.

I don't know who your biology teacher is, and have no way of evaluating the truth of this claim simply because your "biology teacher two years ago confirmed it."

As I said earlier in the thread, anonymous testimonies are worthless.

 

Well, Ransom, you will be judged for your actions as well as I will be judeged for mine. But as for the biology teacher confirming what I heard/saw in the paper is truth and I can't tell you much more than I know. And I am not going to argue with you anymore about it, it is just too time consuming. It is actually a pointless conversation that is leading no where fast. I just don't enjoy talking about something that is not really important now if we were talking about something doctrinally than I would continue this conversation but...it is just not happening. Sorry. Jesus loves you though and so do I.

 

Some men in my church had a discussion similar to this one many years back. One elder gentleman wishing to show how broad a view he had, so broad that he could listen even to classial music, I responded (jokingly), "I like to listen to the classics too, the Beatles are great!"
I'm no music connoisseur but feel that most of the choices about music styles are a cultural decision. Then again I listen to bluegrass.

Regarding the heart attack issue, I've worked in cardiology for 20 years and never heard of anythng like that. Music may increase Rock music may adrenalin levels which would increase the heart rate, perhaps loud and vibrating music may stimulate an arrhythmia or extra heart beat, but so does caffene and lack of sleep. Now if you were saying "could you give up sleep?" I know exactly what I'd say!

[ November 12, 2002, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: Deacon ]

 

If it makes you feel any better, in all my time as a paramedic, I never heard anything like that, either.

 

extremebiblereader said:

Well, Ransom, you will be judged for your actions as well as I will be judeged for mine.

Veiled "God is gonna get you" threat noted.

But as for the biology teacher confirming what I heard/saw in the paper is truth and I can't tell you much more than I know.

You can't tell me anything convincing, apparently. Like actual evidence.

And I am not going to argue with you anymore about it, it is just too time consuming.

So I'm just supposed to accept your personal ipse dixit, is that it?

It is actually a pointless conversation that is leading no where fast.

You're right. If you aren't going to back up your unsupported claims with supporting evidence, you will get nowhere, and that in a hurry.

I just don't enjoy talking about something that is not really important now

So it was important enough to bring up, but not important enough to prove? Interesting how that works.

 

just think the more important God becomes in your personal life; so the music.
...................bill

 

Just think, the more important grace becomes in your personal life, less so the trivial stuff.

 

Thanks Mike, I was saving this post for a rainy day.

"Christian" Rock Music?
The origin of rock music and the term "rock 'n' roll" are interesting ones. In the early 1950s, a disk-jockey named Alan Freed was one of the first white people to be involved in "rhythm & blues" music, which was the direct forerunner of rock 'n' roll. Rock 'n' roll was a kind of fusion between rhythm & blues and country & western music. Freed was one of the first white people to play this new rhythm & blues/country combination on his radio program, and was perplexed as to what to call it since it obviously needed a new name.

Freed had been receiving bizarre reports concerning kids' reactions to this new music, so he decided to name it after a ghetto term that black people used for pre-marital sex in the back seat of a car -- hence, the term "rock 'n' roll" was coined. (Contrast this true account of the origin of rock 'n' roll music with that told us by the so-called "Christian" rock band Petra in the lyrics of one of their songs; i.e., that God was the source of rock 'n' roll!: God gave rock 'n 'roll to you, Put it in the soul of everyone; If you love the sound, And don't forget the Source, You can turn-a-round; You can change your course.)

One of the myths of our time is the idea that music is neutral. This is a key argument of those who defend blending Christian words with worldly styles of music, such as rock or jazz. (This new hybrid is then called "Contemporary Christian Music.") The truth is that music is not neutral. Musical rhythms are a form of communication just as real and powerful as words.

Christian? Rock, by Ric Llewellyn, is a tract published by the Fundamental Evangelistic Association. This tract carefully shows that music in not neutral. Llewellyn goes on to detail the Biblical screens any music must pass before it can be labeled as "Christian" (Eph. 5:18,19; Col. 3:16); i.e., the music must be a channel for correct doctrine, and (a) its lyrics should be edifying, spiritually oriented, clear, conforming to Biblical truth, and point our focus to Jesus Christ, (b) its score (the arrangement of the musical notes) should not overshadow the message conveyed by the lyrics, but should compliment it, and (c) its character (the "attitudes" in the music and of the performers) should be consistent with the purity of the message it claims to convey (reverence, worshipful, etc.). Obviously, each of the above screens must stand on its own; i.e., one "good" aspect of the music's nature cannot sanctify any of the others.

When one applies these screens to any music dubbed as "Christian," it becomes clear most "Christian" music is anything but. Yet Larry Norman, the man frequently called "the father of Christian rock," makes the incredulous statement that rock 'n' roll music originated in the Church hundreds of years ago, and that the devil later stole it!! Since rock 'n' roll music did not even come into existence until the early 1950s, Norman is obviously unable to provide one shred of evidence for this claim. Nevertheless, Norman's battle cry is to 'take rock music back for Jesus' sake!' Norman titles one of his songs, "Why Should the Devil Have All The Good Music," and in another song he refers to Christ (at His return for His Church) as an "Unidentified Flying Object." In still another song, his lyrics pitifully trivialize the Gospel of the Resurrection (i.e., "They nailed Him to a cross; They put Him in the ground; Just goes to show you; Can't keep a good Man down.")

"Christian" rockers like Larry Norman almost always state that the purpose of their music is for evangelism and/or entertainment, yet the Bible teaches that the purpose or use of music is specifically for worship, praise, edification, and the teaching of doctrine (e.g., Exo. 15:1,2,20,21; I Chron. 15:27,28; 16:9,23; II Chron. 20:21,22; Psa. 95:2; 105:2; Acts 16:25; Eph. 5:18,19; Col. 3:16). Over fifty psalms were dedicated to the chief musician to be used in worship, and in heaven the 24 elders and angelic beings will also be using music in worship (Rev. 5:8 ff). So even if one could find nothing wrong with the lyrics, the score, the character, and/or the effect of "Christian" rock music, one would still have to question why these modern day, self-proclaimed musical evangelists/entertainers persist in using their music in endeavors where there is no Biblical precedent; i.e., although mentioned over 800 times in Scripture, music is never used for entertainment or for evangelism or for any end within itself. Music in the Bible, in every instance, is used in praise and in worship, either to God or to Satan.

There appears to be a parallel between the attempt today to "Christianize" rock music and the "Christianization" of various pagan religious practices in fourth century Rome. The Babylonian mystery religions were introduced into Christianity by Constantine in 313 A.D. as he tried to incorporate the pagans into the newly constituted "Holy" Roman Empire. The Constantine-led Roman church was willing to adapt and adopt pagan practices in order to make Christianity palatable to the heathen. The heathen festivals were adopted into Christianity, and then eventually, many of the associated pagan symbols and actions were reinterpreted in ways acceptable to Christian faith and practice. "Christianization" of pagan customs, symbols, etc., occurred as Christianity had to undergo a transformation so that pagans could "convert" without giving up their old beliefs and rituals.

Has not the modern church of today done much of the same adoption, reinterpretation, and "Christianization" of what is called "rock music" in order to make Christianity more palatable to the "teenaged" lost? And does not this approach smack of the traditional Roman Catholic method of making converts from pagans? -- first adopt the pagan practices, and then reapply Biblical meaning to them. In this manner, the former pagans can retain their pagan idolatrous heritage by merely renaming the idols and changing the terminology used in the worship of them.

Those today who are able to clearly see the error and futility of "Christianizing" secular psychology and its psychotherapies by merely relabeling them as "Christian" psychology and "Christian" psychiatric clinics, somehow are unable to see that they have incorporated the same erroneous relabeling process by taking secular rock music, adopting "Christian" lyrics, and renaming it "Christian" rock. Since when does something become Christian by merely "Christianizing" the terminology and placing Christ's name in front of it? Are we not to call the lost out of the culture to repentance and righteousness, rather than imitate the culture?

For the world, it is impossible to separate from the lure of the pleasures of the flesh; they have no desire to do so nor do they have the power to do so if they did desire. But what reasons do we as Christians have to ignore our Lord's command to come out and be separate? Instead, we adopt the world's music in all its destructive forms (score and character), add Christian lyrics to it, and think we are being pleasing to the Lord and are a testimony of holiness to an unbelieving world.

"Christian" rock music offers no hope -- since it is Spiritless, it can give none. It does not offer heaven, for the music within itself produces a vacuum -- full of sound and fury, but no substance. It provides no foundation to the believer because its birth came from secular rock 'n' roll, which has no basis in God. The approaches of religious rockers all seem to suggest that "We must become the world to win the world." That method will not work simply because it is outside of God's plan for the proper balancing of Biblically-ordained modes of evangelism with Biblical principles of separation.

God Bless

Enda

PS Still praying.

 

Wow

 

Enda, I challenge you to name for me just one piece of music which is in and of itself evil. The only parameter that I set to this challenge is that the piece of music you choose must have no vocals of any kind.If you have the conviction to do so, and the ability to control your anger, I would very much like to engage you in a meaningful dialogue.

 

Travelsong,

I'm not sure that I have the ability to control my anger and I'm even less sure that I would be in any way edified by engaging in another debate on the subject. (Jeremiah 7:19)

No offence but I think I'll decline, I have nothing to add to the above article.

If, on the other hand you want to apply yourself to finding a rock song that fits the above criteria then maybe we can talk.

Luke 11:23
He that is not with me is against me.

With respect, maybe it is time you climbed down off that fence Travelsong.

God Bless

Enda

[ June 23, 2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: enda ]

 

I've read the above article before, and still find it absurd. It is, I believe, a misrepresentation of Scripture, and a poor attempt at making Christian Rock Music the fall guy. But at the same time, I'm thankful that I can hold to my opinion, and not feel I must win an argument or debate.

 

understood

Absolutely, anything by keith Green.

I know exactly where I stand on this issue and why.

 

Or Jerome Olds or Wes King or Rich Mullins or...

 

He'll Take Care Of The Rest : Keith Green



You know it ain't no use, banging your head,

up against that cold stone wall,

Cause nobody's perfect, except for the Lord,

and even the best bound to fall,

Remember He is de vine, and you are de branch,

He'd love to get you through it if you'd give Him a chance,

Just keep doing your best,

And pray that it's blessed,

And Jesus takes care of the rest.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes the Lord said that He'd take care of the rest, He's gonna do it,

He'll take care of the rest, He'll see you through it,

He'll take care of the rest, the devil blew it,

He'll take care of the, He'll take care of the rest.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just think about Moses, in front of the burning bush, barefoot on the Holy ground,

You know, he must have been thinking, what's an old dude like me,

Gonna tell em all when I go down, go down Moses,

The Lord said, hey Moe, don't you worry about going down south,

I'll be saying every word that comes out of your mouth,

Just keep doing your best, and pray that it's blessed,

Hey Moe, I'll take care of the rest.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes the Lord said that He'd take care of the rest, he's gonna do it,

He'll take care of the rest, He'll see you through it,

He'll take care of the rest, oh, Pharaoh blew it,

He'll take care of the, He'll take care of the rest.

Just believe, and you'll receive, that comfort you need,

You just think about all those lonely people you know,

They've got everything they want, but they have empty souls,

Well, He'll take care of the, He'll take care of the,

He'll take care of the, care of the rest.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You just think about Noah, toting his umbrella,

when there wasn't a cloud in the sky,

All his neighbors would laugh at his pet giraffe,

and would snicker as he walked by,

But the Lord said, hey Noah, keep cool, just keep building that boat,

It's just a matter of time till they see who's gonna float,

You just keep doing your best, and pray that it's blessed,

Hey Noah, I'll take care of the rest, I'm the weatherman.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord said that he'll take care of the rest, He's gonna do it,

He'll take care of the rest, He'll see you through it,

He'll take care of the rest, his neighbors blew it,

He'll take care of the rest, He's gonna do it, He's gonna do it,

He'll take care of the rest, only Jesus can see you through it,

He'll take care of the rest, yes, yes, yes,

He'll take care of the, He'll take care of the rest….
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I did a search on Keith Green lyrics, this is the first one I found. I don't think I need search any further.

This song conveys the message the world wants to hear, ie. just do your best.

It also contains no evidence of reverence whatsoever, ie. you are de vine, I am de branch, God referring to Moses as Moe, and God referring to himself as the weatherman.

If it wasn't so pathetic it would be funny.

If this is the best Christian rock has to offer you are in trouble.

I'll check out Mike's recommendations and I truly hope I'll find something a little more worthy of discussion.

God Bless

Enda

 

Rich Mullins, Keith Green, Chris Rice, FFH, Ross King, Shane Barnard, Shane Everett... I could go on longer if you'd like.

Gross generalities like that are most of the time made by fools. I would not presume to label the music that so many listen to, worship with, and attribute the call of God as an abomination.

I've been listening to Christian "Rock" since I was very young. I am a Christian writer, singer, and worship leader. I use many of the things rebuffed in this article to lead in worship. If God uses something like these songs to draw people to Himself, then I don't see the argument that is being made. Just my humble opinion.

 

TAKE ME THERE : Jerome Olds


Love, come on and take me there
Come on and take me where You are

I can only see so far from this distant shore
So I close my eyes and dream
Cause its there beyond the eastern sky
That You've prepared for me
And with every breath I yearn to be
Where faith will turn to sight

(Chorus)
Love, come on and take me there
Come on and take me where You are
Love, come on and take me there
Come on and take me where
You are

So I open my eyes to another day
Faces a world I don't fit in
So all that I can do is wait for You
For You to come again
Like a thief in the night You'll crack the sky
To take me away from there

So I'll look for You everywhere
I go
Will You speak to me will You let me know
That the dawn will break and it won't be long
Til You come for me I can still be strong
I can hold on tight til the light break through
I will wait; I will wait for You

(Repeat chorus)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Marginally better I must admit, less comedic value. Still, its hardly packed with doctrine and I'm also assuming (since I haven't heard it) that you can hear the lyrics over the music.

For me its not much different to what your average boy band would be singing.

Still looking......

God Bless

Enda

 

I agree.

Enda tips his hand here.

He criticizes Keith Green for saying that God is the vine and we are the branch, but this comes directly from the teachings of Jesus.

He says that the world will see this as "just do your best" but how many non-Christians have ever even heard of Keith Green?

He made Gospel music on Gospel albums and played for an exclusively Christian audence. His music and his preaching was so strong that he sent many Christians running for the exits. I would suggest that anyone who doesn't believe this listen to his live album and to the in between song preaching that occurs after "The Sheep and the Goats". Not exactly seeker sensitive stuff here.

Furthermore, the context of the song is clear that it's about following God's commands.

The truth is, if you're as biased against it as these guys are, you're going to find fault with anything, regardless of it's content.

 

Song: Move to the moon
Band: Wes King


And build a haven
For lost balloons
I'm gonna move to the moon
And find the words
For this lonely tune
That my heart has composed
Far away from these earthly woes
I'm gonna move to the moon
Next train leaves
At high noon
I'm gonna move to the moon
I'll buy my tickets
Just as soon
As you give me the word
That there's no hope for us in this world

CHORUS:
'Cause I can't live
In the same world with you, girl
If I can't be your man
And I can't breathe
The same air that you breathe
If you can't understand
I've got to have your hand
So I'll just move
I'm gonna move to the moon
And build a haven
For lost balloons
I'm gonna move to the moon
So you can call me
The lunar groom
All this talk of love and care
Has turned to be nothing more than heated air

CHORUS

I'll just say good-bye
And I'll move to the moon


Oh those lost balloons, how sad.

"Shuttle for Wes King, Shuttle for Wes King!"

 

A Christian song, written for the Christian writer's Christian wife. I fail to see your argument.