Prove all Things

Pioneer · May 30, 2003

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV) - "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

Here is my position:

I believe that the King James Bible is God's preserved word in the English language for the English speaking people of the world.

In another thread it was stated that my position was unscriptural and that my position could not be proven to be true by using the scriptures alone. Ok, I wish to ask a question:

If my position was an unscriptural position, is it not reasonable to ask you to prove to me why it is unscriptural (using only scriptural proofs to prove me wrong)? In other words, I am asking those that disagree with my position to use the scriptures alone to prove to me that I am wrong!

Some of you may be scratching your heads. Let me give you an example of what I mean. I believe that it is unscriptural to use tobacco products (in any form). Let's say that I am trying to convince someone that he/she is leading an unscriptural life style by smoking tobacco. Now the Bible does not state in so many words 'thou shalt not use 'tobacco.' But there are scriptural principles that lead us to believe that God is not pleased with a Christian who smokes. So then I take the scriptures and show him/her the scriptural proofs that he/she is unscriptural because he/she smokes. Got it? Good. Now prove to me I am unscriptural in my beliefs using the scriptures alone.

Earlier someone posted this statement in an effort to keep from answering the question:

The Bible does not say that the NY Yankees are God's favorite baseball team. But there is no scripture that says that God did not say that the Yankees are His favorite team.

Nobody here is asserting that God even has a favorite baseball team! I am only trying to show you that to ask us King James Bible believers to prove our position by using the scriptures alone is an unreasonable request.

The proof of our position is in the manuscript evidence and we believe that manuscript evidence bears witness that the King James Bible is God's preserved word for the English speaking people!

Dr. Bob · May 30, 2003

Oldest trick in the book, Pioneer and I won't let you get by with it.

You state:

I believe that the King James Bible is God's preserved word in the English language for the English speaking people of the world.

Then you list all kinds of things you want US to do. When in reality is this: YOU stated a position and YOU have to defend it.

So, please give me ONE VERSE that says what you say you believe:
One verse that says the KJV is God's preserved word in English for the English-speaking people of the world.

Defend your position. THEN, when you have supported your position, we will discuss/debate it.

ONE VERSE that actually says the KJV IS what you claim. Then we can discuss the BIBLE, not your opinion or my opinion.

Thank you.

Archangel7 · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by Pioneer:

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV) - "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

Here is my position:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I believe that the King James Bible is God's preserved word in the English language for the English speaking people of the world.

In another thread it was stated that my position was unscriptural and that my position could not be proven to be true by using the scriptures alone. Ok, I wish to ask a question:

If my position was an unscriptural position, is it not reasonable to ask you to prove to me why it is unscriptural (using only scriptural proofs to prove me wrong)? In other words, I am asking those that disagree with my position to use the scriptures alone to prove to me that I am wrong![/QUOTE]If you are saying that the KJV is God's word in English, then I doubt if anybody would disagree with you. But if you are saying that the KJV and the KJV *alone* is God's word in English, then yes, that position is unscriptural, and has already been shown to be unscriptural elsewhere on this board.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000803;p=7#000090

Arubian Baptist · May 30, 2003

So smoking tabacco is not bad?

I searched my bible, I even used the Jehova witness bible, but still...could find no verse in the bible that said; "Thou shall not smoke tobacco "

Thank you docter Bob, your argument has helped a lot of christians who were doubting if they should continue their smoking habbits yes or no

The same I did with gambling in a casino...no where to be found it was forbidden...aah! Las Vegas, here we come, prepare for a new start..the yearly baptist gambling association...

Right!!!!!!

Sorry for being cynical...but this is too absurd to just let it pass by, this will close all other arguments in the future...

What do you say? It is wrong?..show me where it is in the bible...show me, just one verse..if not...it is just an opinion.

Sad, very sad indeed

AV Defender · May 30, 2003

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV) - "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

using the scriptures alone

Ok,the Bible(KJB)says that God will show us(at least the ones who are willing) the truth,lets look at John 16:13,Proverbs 22:17-21,and 1 Corinthians 2:9-13,also see Hebrews 5:14,1st Cor 12:10,1st Cor 2:14,and Romans 9:1.That is more than enough proof according to 2Tim 3:16!!

The proof of our position is in the manuscript evidence and we believe that manuscript evidence bears witness that the King James Bible is God's preserved word for the English speaking people!

Correct!!! If in doubt,read the above Scripture again..

Arubian Baptist · May 30, 2003

Anti-Alexandrian · May 30, 2003

Oldest trick in the book,

No trick;just answer the question.

Pioneer and I won't let you get by with it.

Look out Pioneer,their on to you!

Then you list all kinds of things you want US to do. When in reality is this: YOU stated a position and YOU have to defend it.

1st Corinthians 1:27...

wizofoz · May 30, 2003

2 Tim 3:16 says ALL scripture, I don't see "all KJV scripture" anywhere in it.

BTW, I looked it up in the NKJV. Does that count?

Scott J · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by JYD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV) - "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

using the scriptures alone

Click to expand...

Ok,the Bible(KJB)says that God will show us(at least the ones who are willing) the truth,lets look at John 16:13,Proverbs 22:17-21,and 1 Corinthians 2:9-13,also see Hebrews 5:14,1st Cor 12:10,1st Cor 2:14,and Romans 9:1.That is more than enough proof according to 2Tim 3:16!![/QUOTE] Not a single one of these verses says anything at all in support of your belief. You assume your superiority then claim these verses in support of your conclusion. This is nothing less than an abuse of scripture.

Nowhere do these verses say that the KJV is the only Word of God in English or any other variation of KJVOnlyism. Nowhere do these verses point to YOU as being guided to a extra-biblical truth that the spiritually undiscerning cannot see. All that your citing of these verses reveals is that KJVOnlyism is based on human authority to the extent that some are even willing to distort what God said to make it agree with something they believe but He didn't say.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The proof of our position is in the manuscript evidence and we believe that manuscript evidence bears witness that the King James Bible is God's preserved word for the English speaking people!

Correct!!! If in doubt,read the above Scripture again.. [/QUOTE]Where? Where is this elusive proof that the MSS evidence points to the KJV and the KJV alone as the preserved Word in English?

Scott J · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by MV-neverist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Oldest trick in the book,

No trick;just answer the question. [/QB][/QUOTE]I already did in the other thread. You all avoided dealing with my response.

You can not establish a doctrine from scripture's silence then demand that others provide scripture to disprove it. If you want to forward something as Christian truth, you must provide some type of biblical evidence to support the belief or else it fails as simply an invention of men.

All sound doctrine is based on what the scripture says. No sound doctrine can be established on what the scripture does not say.

Ransom · May 30, 2003

Pioneer said:

If my position was an unscriptural position, is it not reasonable to ask you to prove to me why it is unscriptural (using only scriptural proofs to prove me wrong)?

Genesis 1:1 does not teach KJV-onlyism.
Genesis 1:2 does not teach KJV-onlyism.
Genesis 1:3 does not teach KJV-onlyism.
.
.
.
Revelation 22:19 does not teach KJV-onlyism.
Revelation 22:20 does not teach KJV-onlyism.
Revelation 22:21 does not teach KJV-onlyism.

I trust you can fill in the gap.

There's my proof. Your turn.

Anti-Alexandrian · May 30, 2003

There's my proof. Your turn.

Proof of WHAT!!??

Baptist in Richmond · May 30, 2003

Pioneer writes:
>>If my position was an unscriptural position, is
>>it not reasonable to ask you to prove to why it
>>is unscriptural (using only scriptural proofs
>>to prove me wrong)? In other words, I am asking
>>those that disagree with my position to use the
>>scriptures alone to prove to me that I am wrong!

If you cannot prove your belief with Scripture, how can you ask someone to prove that you are wrong? When an opinion cannot be reinforced with Scripture, it is a personal conviction, not Biblical doctrine.

>>Let me give you an example of what I mean. I
>>believe that it is unscriptural to use
>>tobacco products (in any form). Let's say that
>>I am trying to convince someone that he/she is
>>leading an unscriptural life style by smoking
>>tobacco. Now the Bible does not state in so
>>many words 'thou shalt not use 'tobacco.' But
>>there are scriptural principles that lead us to
>>believe that God is not pleased with a
>>Christian who smokes. So then I take the
>>scriptures and show him/her the scriptural
>>proofs that he/she is unscriptural because
>>he/she smokes. Got it? Good. Now prove to me I
>>am unscriptural in my beliefs using the
>>scriptures alone.

Here you go again: there is no Scriptural support for your stance, by your own admission. If you believe smoking to be unscriptural, then by all means don’t smoke. My opinion is somewhat similar to yours, however, it is my opinion, and I would never offer it to another Believer as doctrine. If you cannot directly support your argument with Scripture, then it is only a personal conviction, not doctrine.

>>The proof of our position is in the manuscript
>>evidence and we believe that manuscript
>>evidence bears witness that the King James
>>Bible is God's preserved word for the English
>>speaking people! manuscript evidence bears
>>witness that the King James Bible is God's
>>preserved word for the English speaking people!

Again, this does not support your argument for KJV-Onlyism being held out as Biblical doctrine. You may believe that the KJV is the Word of God. I have said at least ten times that I agree with you. I also believe that the Wiclif, Tyndale, and the Geneva Bibles are “God’s preserved Word for the English-speaking people.” Some KJV-Onlyists claim that these versions are not God’s Word. My reply is simple: “Prove your accusation.” Their response: “Prove that my accusation isn’t true.” That doesn’t hold up in court, in a debate, and it doesn’t hold up in this public forum. If you are going to claim a thought/belief as Biblical doctrine to me, you had better be prepared to back it up with Scripture.

Scott J · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by MV-neverist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> There's my proof. Your turn.

Proof of WHAT!!?? [/QUOTE]Ransom's post is a very effective answer to the initial challenge. He proved that KJVOnlyism is unscriptural. It is not in the Bible. It is now your turn to prove that it is.

Nice job Ransom. Wish I had thought of that approach.

Pioneer · May 30, 2003

I will give you one more example of what I am asking.

#1 - I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 'Calvinism' is an unscriptural doctrine.

#2 - I don't need a Calvinist to give me his 'scriptural proofs' as to why he believes what he believes.

#3 - I can compare the teachings of Calvinism with the plain teachings of the scriptures and come to the conclusion (with clear scriptural evidence) that Calvinism is an unscriptural doctrine.

#4 - Why can't you compare the teachings of a King James Bible believer with the plain teachings of the scriptures and show me (from the scriptures) how you came to the conclusion that for me to believe that the King James Bible is the preserved word of God in the English language (for the English speaking people of this world) is an unscriptural doctrine?

#5 - You attempt to back King James Bible believers into a corner with your challenge. The scribes and the Pharisees did the same thing with Christ and often he ignored them.

Anti-Alexandrian · May 30, 2003

Wish I had thought of that approach.

Why don't folks quit skirting the issue and just answer the original question;forget the I will if you will tripe,just answer the QUESTION...

Pastor Larry · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by Pioneer:
#1 - I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 'Calvinism' is an unscriptural doctrine.

YOu must have gotten some new revelation then, because the Scripture as it stands now clearly does not agree with you.

#4 - Why can't you compare the teachings of a King James Bible believer with the plain teachings of the scriptures and show me (from the scriptures) how you came to the conclusion that for me to believe that the King James Bible is the preserved word of God in the English language (for the English speaking people of this world) is an unscriptural doctrine?

We have many times. You just aren't listening.

1. Christ quoted authoritatively from things other than the KJV. Therefore, the KJV is not the only word of God.
2. Paul quoted authoritatively from things other than the KJV. Therefore, the KJV is not the only word of God.
3. Peter quoted authoritatively from things other than the KJV. Therefore, the KJV is not the only word of God.
4. In comparing Scripture with Scripture, the KJV does not even agree with itself, as we have shown.
5. The KJV is not an perfect translation of the original langauge texts, as we have shown.
6. The KJV never claims to be the only word of God, as you have never contradicted with any Scripture.

This is such a simple issue but you guys are determined to make it difficult by your extra biblical assertions. We really don't care what version you use. We have said many times to use the KJV, love it, read it, and live it. But understand that it is a translation of Scripture; it is not the only faithful translation.

neal4christ · May 30, 2003

Why don't folks quit skirting the issue and just answer the original question;forget the I will if you will tripe,just answer the QUESTION...

We didn't make the claim.

That is really not that hard to understand, is it? You make a claim, you defend it.

But, if you want to play like that, I put forth that my ESV is the Word of God. Prove me wrong Scripturally.

Neal

Scott J · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by MV-neverist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Wish I had thought of that approach.

Why don't folks quit skirting the issue and just answer the original question;forget the I will if you will tripe,just answer the QUESTION... [/QUOTE]He did. He used elipsis to list every verse in the Bible stating that each one did not support KJVOnlyism. That is a ironclad proof that KJVOnlyism is not biblical.

AV Defender · May 30, 2003

Genesis 1:1 does not teach KJV-onlyism.
Genesis 1:2 does not teach KJV-onlyism.
Genesis 1:3 does not teach KJV-onlyism.
.
.
.
Revelation 22:19 does not teach KJV-onlyism.
Revelation 22:20 does not teach KJV-onlyism.
Revelation 22:21 does not teach KJV-onlyism.

I trust you can fill in the gap.

There's my proof. Your turn.

I already did with John 16:13,Proverbs 22:17-21,and 1 Corinthians 2:9-13,also see Hebrews 5:14,1st Cor 12:10,1st Cor 2:14,and Romans 9:1. Now if you are a "Bible believer" as you claim you are,then what will you do with those verses?God said He would show us the truth did He not? Do you think He would LIE?? Do I fall under Galatians 4:16??

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