Positions on Assurance

Hi all,

About six months ago I got involved in some realy indepth conversations on assurance in this board. It really challenged me to examine the issue a little closer.

Recently I order three books on the subject -

"The Gospel According to Jesus" by John MacArthur(it is his revised 1995 edition)

"So Great Salvation" by Charles Ryrie

"The Race Set Before Us" by Thomas Schreiner and Ardel Caneday.

I recently went on vacation and during the numerous hours of driving my wife and I would take turns driving. During my time off I was delving in into these books. I read them all by the end of the week.

I am now in the process of going back more closely and re-reading them looking for extra tid-bits.

I am in the process of writing an article for my website based on reviewing what I read from these three men. I will say that I come closest to Ryrie's position although I disagree with him on a few things which I will note in my article.

But I was interested in hearing whatever feed back you guys have on these various books.

Thanks

IFBReformer

 

I take it you have never read much of Ryrie's writings because what you said is exactly the opposite of what he says in his book "So Great Salvation".

He correctly points out that Lordship proponents use the strawman argument that those who do not believe in the lordship salvation believe a person only has to give mental accent to the facts and no change or fruit has to happen.

In fact if you read his book he says that change and fruit will happen with anyone who is a true believer. But how much change? And will it always be visible - does a person continue to become more and more righteous or can they stall in their growth - this is the real issue.

I disagree with MacArthur and Schreiner but I think the Race Set Before Us is borderline heresey.

Here are a couple of quotes to chew on from their book:

“We believe that God’s promises have their own function, namely, to establish belief in the God who keeps his promises and to assure us the he is faithful to his people…Biblical warnings and admonitions are the means God uses to save and preserve his people to the end.” (“The Race Set Before Us”, page 40)

“Persevering in godly behavior and sound teaching are necessary to obtain salvation…”
(“The Race Set Before Us”, page 51)

“Salvation is depicted as a future inheritance, not a present possession.”
(“The Race Set Before Us”, page 51)

“good works and following Jesus(Rom 2:6-7;Mk 10:29-30) are also necessary to obtain eternal life on the last day.”
(“The Race Set Before Us”, page 67)

“The Christian life is like a race, and we run to win a prize…Paul exhorts us in I Corinthians 9:24 to “run in such a way as to get the prize.”… To win the prize, believers must go into “strict training”(vs.25) and run diligently (vs.26). We must exercise discipline and perseverance so that we “will not be disqualified for the prize”(vs.27).”
(“The Race Set Before Us”, page 46)

“…the prize to be won is nothing other than eternal life itself, entrance into the heavenly kingdom and final redemption. Nothing less than our eternal inheritance is at stake, and thus the issue of perseverance is weighty indeed.”
(“The Race Set Before Us”, page 86)

“Without discipline one cannot be godly, and without godliness one cannot gain the eternal life of the age to come.”
(“The Race Set Before Us”, page 108)

“Belief in Jesus Christ entails denying oneself both gratification of sinful appetites and any pleasure, though not evil in itself, that steals affection for Christ. One who believes in Jesus Christ picks up one’s own cross, an instrument of death to sin, and follows after him. Apart from denying ourselves and putting sinful desires to death, we will lose our souls.”
(“The Race Set Before Us”, page 135)

have a nice day

I will be reviewing MacArthurs book and Schreiners in much more detail later.

IFBReformer

 

Gunther,

I look forward to a good discussion with you on this issue of utmost importance. I agree that we should take it one piece at a time.

Your Statement:
"The primary difference between him and MacArthur is the fruit issue. MacArthur believes that if no fruit occurs, then neither did salvation. Ryrie does not agree with this."

My Response:
Here are some direct quotes from Charles Ryrie that contradict you charge against him that he believes fruit does not have to occur:

"Every Christian will bear spiritual fruit. Somewhere, sometime, somehow. Otherwise that person is not a believer. Every born-again individual will be fruitful. Not to be fruitful is to be faithless, without faith, and therefore without salvation." -Charles Ryrie
("So Great Salvation", page 41)

"Fruit then, furnishes evidence of saving faith. The evidence may be strong or weak, erratic or regular, visible or not. But a saving, living faith works." - Charles Ryrie
("So Great Salvation", page 43)

So it is clear from the evidence presented that Charles Ryrie does believe the a true believer will produce fruit - that is not the argument.

It is how much fruit and will that fruit always be visible? He correctly asserts that all to often we assemble a man-made list of fruits that we must see from a professing believer or we automatically condemn that person as false professor.

The difference between Ryrie and MacArthur on this issue is not whether true believers will bear fruit - but how much and will it always be visible.

Here are some quotes from MacArthur to illustrate this difference:

"If we are truly born of God, we have a faith that cannot fail to overcome the world(I John 5:4). We may sin(I John 2:1)-we will sin-but process of sanctification can never stall completely." - John MacArthur
("The Gospel According To Jesus", page 39)

"The mark of a true disciple is not the he never sins, but rather that when he does sin he inevitably returns to the Lord to receive cleansing and forgiveness....He may occasionally turn back to his fishing nets, but ultimately he will be drawn again to the Master. When Christ confronts him, he will return to a life of service for the Savior." - John MacArthur
("The Gospel According to Jesus", page 111)

The real and true difference between MacArthur's and Ryries positions(and thus yours and mine) is that Ryrie believes the process of sanctifacation may as MacArthur puts it, "stall". Some people produce fruit in small amounts and sometime this fruit is not always visible.

MacArthur's position is that a true believer may sin, but this is only "occasionally" and at other places in his book "momentary" but cannot characterize the life of true believer.

I will try and keep my posts as short as possible but sometimes when you are putting in evidence it takes up space - but you have to.

IFBReformer

 

IFB, MacArthur does believe that saving faith will produce visible evidence. That is more what I was getting at. Ryries, as evidenced by the above quote, does not believe that. </font>[/QUOTE]Gunther,

We finally agree on what Ryrie really believes!

Your first statement was a bit misleading(not that you necessarily meant it to be):

"Ryrie: 4-point calvinist - believes that saving faith does not have to be more than mental ascent to basic, fundamental doctrines about Christ and man.No change has to take place."

It is not that "no change" or "fruit" will happen, it how much and will it be visible. But since you are not a Lordship advocate I will move on to Schreiner's "Means of Salvation" position.

IFBReformer

 

Excellent point Sularis!

"11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
1 Corinthians 3:11-15(NIV)

Both MacArthur and Schreiner both dance around that passage. They try and explain but do a really bad job of it so they mostly ignore it.

IFBReformer

 

Gunther,
Actually you have presented Schreiner's position rather well.

Schreiner equates "treasures in heaven" and "reward" with eternal salvation. He says throughout his book that they are synonomous.

The faultiness of this position is shown by passages like the one we are discussing now.

If it true as Schreiner proposes that treasures in heaven and rewards are synonmous with eternal life than what "loss" will he "suffer" but yet still be saved.

You say that the works that are burned up are those that are not done by faith. Those done by faith will not burn up - ok. But what loss will he suffer - it says someone who is saved will loose something - what does he loose?

If we all get the same reward, and there is no degree to rewards as my side(the loss of rewards) teaches what will he loose(it is clear he looses something yet is still saved)?

We all get rewards and treasures in heaven - their is no difference in Schreiner's view - so what is the loss he will suffer when his works are tried on the last day?

IFBReformer

 

Gunther,

After you explain what "loss" someone is saved will suffer here is the next question for you.

The two most destructive elements of the "Means of Salvation" position from my own studies of scripture is the fluidness(like a process not settled) with which they represent salvation and making the "prize", "treasures in heaven" and rewards equal to eternal life.

I want to pose some observations and then ask a question about Schreiner's "already -but no yet" view of salvation.

"James also conceives of our salvation as future. He exhorts his readers to "humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you"(James 1:21 NIV). The idea is not that they are saved but that the Word is able to save them. Apparently, the work of salvation is not completed, since the Word planted in them must be given free rein so that they will ultimately experiance salvation."
-Schreiner
("The Race Set Before Us", page 52)

Lets look at the quote he gives in its full context:

James 1:21-25(NIV)
"21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does."

What is Jame's point in this passage - the one who looks into the Law of God and incorporates it into his life "will be blessed in what he does". He is not saying he will finally be saved because he does it.

He is in no way suggesting that they were not saved already. If anything the phrase "which can save you" refers to the power of God's Word and specifically the Gospel. The Gospel has the power to save us, but that does not mean we are not saved.

The book of James has always been a difficult book to interpret when you don't interpret with rest of the New Testament.

Martin Luther called the epistle of James the "straw man epistle". He placed in the back of his German translation without any Roman numerals.

I believe Martin Luther was wrong in that, yet he was on to something that many could take statements made in James and construct "straw-man" arguments if they did not use the whole of the New Testament to understand Jame's inspired writings.

I believe the clear teaching of the New Testament is that Salvation is an one-time event in the life of a believer - not a process(like Schreiner).

Lets look at Ephesians 1:13-14:

"13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."
Ephesians 1:13-14(NIV)

When we heard the Gospel and accepted "were included in Christ" - clearly past tense. At that time we were indwelled with the Holy Spirit who is "a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance". This is one of the clearest passages in Bible on the security of our salvation.

When we believe we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit who is our guarentee of our inheritance.

What is our inheritance? Among other things it is our glorfied bodies and being in the presense of the Lord for all eternity.

So Gunther - based on passages like Ephesians chapter 1(because there are many others as well) isn't our salvation(including glorifaction and presense with Christ) settled in heaven the moment we believe?

IFBReformer