The Elect and the Gospel

I'm not arguing with you yet, I just want to know before we start, your definition of how God saves us.

 

Hi old School Baptist;
Please tell us just how we are saved. Do we choose Him or, does He choose us? How many elect are there? How are we elected or, are we elected because we first believe or because we are made to believe? Do we have to be elected to be saved?.if so why?
Romanbear

 

Welcome to the BB... Old School... There are a few of your brethren on here... I'm Old School... Old Line myself... And just wanted to let you know there are other PBs on here... Btw Yelsew and Romanbear have already been given the answers to these questions time and time again... I guess they want to see if you will answer them any differently?... Will pipe in if I have anything to add... I will let you address their questions... Brother Glen Primitive Baptist Old Schooler Old Liner From San Diego

 

Tyndale, you have just preconditioned the response to my question to Old_School_Baptist. You scream bloody murder when others do that to you, then you employ the same tactic. It is no wonder that there will never be agreement amongst Christians.

 

Yelsew I did not as he will answer the question as he understand it... I did not precondition him to nothing... He is among my brethren and I know the basis of his answer as he is of my belief but I don't know word for word how he will answer. He doesn't need me to answer for him and I won't until he answers... Then I may add some or just let it stand as is... All depends if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound but being a PB for 35 years I know the tune he will play!... Brother Glen

 

Hi tyndale;
Are all primitive baptist, Calvinist? Are you really sure of that or do you know this guy?
Romanbear

 

One has to but read the post of the brother to know his view of how we are saved. Sovereign Grace is a beautiful thing.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Are you presuming that is what Old_School_Baptist meant with the opening post of this topic? Because it simply is not stated as such.

 

AMEN! ... Brother Glen

 

Bro. Old_School_Baptist and Bro. Glen,

First, let me say I am glad to read this post, this is the kind of information I am digging for in my reading (Baptist History Forum).

Bro. Glen knows I am Missionary Baptist, now you know I can see the points you are making, but still would like to make a few comments.

I agree fully and completely with this statement.

Because I agree with your first statement I can see the meaning of this statement, i.e if salvation is in the finished work of Christ, the "Gospel" does not produce it, it is produced through that eternal work. My only contention here would be that the Gospel awakens the elect concerning their position.

I will have to study this point further. We believe the ark of Noah is typifying Christ and the believer is "in Christ" as Noah was in the ark. And each were placed there by God.

Here is a mouth full. We believe baptism is but a picture of our death and resurrection in Christ, and that this alone provides us entrance into the church. We believe (or perhaps I should say I believe) that baptism, repentance etc. do not, as you say, save us eternally, this is true because it is the blood of Jesus that has saved his people. Then, baptism and repentance do seperate the believer from the world and place him/her into the church body whereby, if continuing in the Spirit, this person is kept from the "destruction" of this world, so to speak. Repentance is the working of the Spirit that has humbled the spirit of man and produces from the heart a Godly sorrow, one who repents not, is one, not of the elect, their following of Christ, profession and all pertaining to this is otherwise "bunk."

Near to the same as the above example as Baptism and Repentance etc. One is seperated from among those of the world by their baptism, whereby they enter into the body; the knowledge of the Gospel has no power alone to deliver to any degree, but it is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1.16), whereby we mean final future deliverance, in this world, the believer stands justified because of his/her position in Christ;

In doing so, the child of God saves himself from the wicked and untoward generation in which he may live during any generation.

This still, is being worked through the Spirit in the believer, who if rebelling against, finds themselves such as Paul described; 'It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.' (Don't mean to be so particular, but I see in scripture and in the present world where men have and are living by the Spirit, but still are subject to persecution and death.

We differ here also brother. Jesus was speaking to 'Jewish leaders' and He preached, as did John, repentance because the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand. It was present, because the King was present with them. This is something I must study further myself, but in scripture I find the following:

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• The Family of God</font>
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• The Kingdom of Heaven</font>
• The Church (which is the bride).</font>

For now, I can say I don't believe Jesus was speaking of salvation (as you know by now, these things are affected by your view of the end-times and these things are sufficient to establish what my view is, I believe).

I agree, but 'the word of God is not Bound' ( II Tim. 2.9). The nation of Bhutan is a Bhuddist kingdom, forbidden any religion except Bhuddism and Hinduism, yet there are brethren from India crossing the borders and preaching the Gospel, this is worked also by the Spirit. Though a nation is not open, it is Christ that openeth and no man can shut and shuts and no man can open.

Nor do I believe one can keep another out of heaven, nor can one deliver any into heaven that are not of the elect.

I think the condition placed is placed on us and determines our degree of affliction in this world, not as to whether the Gospel will save or not, nor whether we should be saved. I don't believe any of the elect shall fail to be saved. To continue in the doctrine is to be safe from the afflictions of this world, but is not equated to the final deliverance, this was worked in Christ. Continuing faithfully in the doctrine will provide for us a better testimony in this world and a better life experience. (Proverbs 14.25).

To be saved is a once and for all realization. It speaks of final eternal deliverance. Justification is worked in Christ, whereby God the Father has pronounced the elect, justified in His Blood. But, to follow a false doctrine, man must justify this from his own logic, reasoning and understanding, this departs from the 'faith once delivered to the saints.' This is not justifiable, except among men. I do believe not all who profess are saved, thus, "the Lord knoweth them that are his" stands, but in view of final deliverance when the hearts of men will be revealed.

Thanks for the post and the insight. This will give me valueable meat to chew on and will serve to direct my studies. As I said above, these questions were what I had, I just didn't know how to articulate them. Your post has been of great use to me to help me to see in a better light some of the contentions among brethren. As you and Bro. Glen both would well know, matters of belief are not simply formulated, but all must be founded from scripture and none can teach any other what is truth, apart from the Spirit teaching and leading into truth, man will not find it, though he were saved. We are too emotionally charged creatures and must take care that we are not being caught up in an emotional plea as to what is truth, but must rely upon that which is Spirit, I believe herein lies the truth.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

[ February 25, 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

God's infinite grace is a beautiful reality to those who believe. [John 3:16] To those who remain in unbelief it is going to be a haunting experience in eternity. [John 3:18b; John 5:40; Acts 7:51] These verses clearly picture the fact that "Irresistible Grace" is a concept that some people should not have swallowed, spiritually speaking.

 

Baptist Board:

"Save yourselves" by "keeping in memory" that this brother is an OLD LINE (so-called) "Primiti Baptist. He is not an OLD SCHOOL PRIMITIVE BAPTIST because we, the original Primitive Baptists do not believe this way.

God will call ALL His elect (All that the Father giveth me SHALL come to me... John 6:37) and they SHALL walk in paths of righteousness for His name's sake. That is Primitive Baptist doctrine if any of you are actually interested.

 

Old School Baptist,

You have once again confirmed the idea that Calvinism has many composite views within the whole scheme of Augustinian theology. Now we are told that some who enter Heaven will not be called by God. I agree with you that children who die before accepting Christ will go to Heaven. If God did not want them there, He would not have given them entrance to felicity above. In this case they were called by Him and elected to everlasting life, I would think.

King David's son from Bathsheba went to Heaven and David said, in effect, 'He cannot come to me, but I will go to be with him.'

Seriously, according to your view are there any others that might be elected to Heaven but did not or will not receive His call?

 

Brethren,
I believe hearing is by the Word of God, I believe those in question can and do hear the Word by the Spirit. Also, where man preaches the Gospel, it must be by the Spirit, or it won't be heard either.

I also would ask you if you can read something and not 'hear' such as reading Scripture and having the Spirit proclaim it to you.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

That is "hearing" in the biblical sense of the word!

"Hearing", in the biblical sense, is using any or all of the human senses to provide "knowledge" to the spirit whereby we humans can be convicted by the Holy Spirit, which causes us to make choices.

The Holy Spirit has nothing with which to convict us if the knowledge is not in or available to our spirit. Unless we are convicted based upon the knowledge we have, what charges are brought against us?

Because man inherited from Adam and Eve, that which within us determines good from evil, we need knowledge of what we do that is good and evil in order to stand convicted by the Holy Spirit. We come about that knowledge by experience, and by "hearing", that is by taking in knowledge via our senses of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, and in speaking. Speaking because it is what comes from the heart that is spoken that reveals what is in us good or evil.

[ February 27, 2003, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Brother,

I have printed out your last post for further study. My initial reading it appears to have internal contradictions. After study, I will reply. God Bless.

Bro. Dallas

 

Hi All,

Some fun history stuff.

The 1644 Baptist Confession didn't address the issue of people being incapable of receiving the external call (the call of the gospel message). It focused on the preaching the Gospel.

"That Christ Jesus by His death did bring fourth salvation and reconciliation only for the 1 elect, which were those which God the Father gave Him; and that the Gospel which is to be preached to all men as the ground of faith, is, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the ever blessed God, filled with the perfection of all heavenly and spiritual excellencies, and that salvation is only and alone to be had through the believing in His name," XXI.,The
CONFESSION OF FAITH Of those CHURCHES which are
commonly (though falsely) called Anabaptists. (1644 London Baptist Confession)

Now, the more popular confession of 1689 was the Baptist adaptation of the Westminster Confession Which both specifically addressed infants and people incapable of receiving the gospel message. (fyi: many internet copies removed the word "elect" out of the follow passage);

"Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." Chap 10, Of Effectual Calling, 1689 London Confession of Faith

The key part of this passage is that "ANY ELECT person incapable of being outwardly called is saved."

This doesn't ignore Rom 10:13-15 or 1 Cor 1:20-21 or 2 Timothy 4:1-7 or Matthew 28:18-20. But it does keep us mindful that God's Will will be done.


Steve

[ March 07, 2003, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: absturzen ]