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Anyone ever studied this?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Grasshopper, May 21, 2003.

  1. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    All these charges of "anti-semetism" are very divisive in Christianity today. People like Clarence Wagner, Zola Levitt, Dave Hunt etc. have been on a crusade in recent years to demonize all non-dispensational Christians who believe in so-called "replacement theology".

    Unfortunately their crusade has been fairly successful despite their weak scriptural support. (Nearly all references are from the Old Testament, and phrases taken out of context from Romans 9. New Testament clarifications are rarely discussed, like the "no difference", "no more geneologies" passages).

    This is the kind of thing that gives Zionist-Christians a bad name. I've personally seen this kind of rhetoric do great damage in Baptist churches. So I guess it's no surprise to see it here on BB.

    It reminds me of the typical liberal charge of "racism" against people who don't support affirmative action, but instead try to promote a "colorblind" society.

    I guess being equal in the sight of God isn't enough for some of us. I thought we were all in this together.

    "Unto you therefore which believe He is precious . . . You are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but now are the people of God." (from 2 Pet. 2:7,9,10)

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear Tim,

    Anti-semitism is alive and well in America today.
    It has its roots in hatred bigotry and jealousy not in a particular brand of Christian eschatology.

    HankD
     
  3. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Back around the 10th century AD, there was a kingdom in Central Russia calle the Khezars. The king had ceased to believe in pagan ideas, and decided to convert himself and his people to one of the monotheistic religions. He interviewed representatives from Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, and decided upon Judaism. Jewish traders intermarried with this tribe, and the Khezars became the Ashkenazi or European Jews. The Sephardic Jews that stayed in Spain, North Africa, and the other Middle Eastern lands such as Iraq are culturally distinct and are racially closer to the original Hebrews.

    Having said all the above, we must understand that any idea of racial purity of any kind is largely bogus. Except for isolated primitive tribes, man has been mixing bloodlines since God separated them at Babel, and we continue to do so. In my 20+ years in the Air Force, I saw lots of this everywhere in the world I went. For instance, there was my friend Terry, of "pure" Swedish heritage, who married a Filipina, and referred to his kids as Swedapinos." (His daughters by the way, are stunningly beautiful--Swedish features and burning blue eyes with their mom's dark olive skin and thick black hair.)

    And, as a historian, I must say that most of the literature I have read that seeks to discredit the Jewishness of modern Jews is either cultic (British Israelism) or some brand of Nazi.
     
  4. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    HankD,

    Yes, I'm well aware of that. But I've been accused of it several times ONLY for my eschatological position. Some "Christian" organizations apparently view "replacement theology" as a threat to their thriving prophecy business--thus we must be demonized.

    In Christ,

    Tim

    [ May 25, 2003, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Tim ]
     
  5. Pastor Chet

    Pastor Chet New Member

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    I can't answer for " some Christian Organizations" but I view it not as a threat to thriving prophecy business,but rather biblically incorrect,even heretical.
    in Christ
    chet
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Just because a point of view disagrees with dispensational premillennialism does not make it a heresy. I think that is the point that is being made. There is a strain among some dispensationalists that non-dispensationalists are by definition anti-Semites and heretics. Perhaps that group should be labeled hyper-dispensational premillennialists?
     
  7. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Pastor Chet,

    You just labeled a whole lot of great Christian leaders (past and present) as heretics.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This has nothing to do with pre-mil or post-mil, pre-trib or mid-trib, or the many other theological eschatological stances you may take on the Bible. It has to do with an anti-Semitic heretical theological teaching known as Replacemeent Theology. Believe whatever eschatology you want to, but Replacement Theology is a heresy. It is anti-Semitic in its nature, does away with the nation of Israel, and paves the way, theoretically, for the nation of Islam to beoome the next religion to replace Christianity. It is born out of liberalism and apostacy.

    Does the Bible teach that Israel has been replaced by the church. That is the questioned that you must honestly answer for yourself. Even if you can't distinguish between blood lines, and tribal lineage is it important to you? Does God know those that are His? Has God made a covenant with the Jews or not? Has that covenant been fulfilled? Yes or No? If so, When? Who officiall became a nation in the land of Palestine in 1948? If they weren't Israelites, then who were they? In Rom. 11:26, when Paul says, "So then all Israel shall be saved, who is he referring to? Has this happened yet? If so when? In the following verses it tells us that at that time God will take away all their sins. Has that happened yet? When will it happen? There are other questions that I ask as well, but start with these. Israel has not been replaced. It still exists today. If it doesn't the onus is on you to prove otherwise.
    DHK
     
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    "So then all Israel shall be saved, who is he referring to?

    How about spiritual Israel. I was afraid this would happen with this thread. Anyone who disagrees with the current mind set about Israel is heretical and anti-semetic.

    Here is part of an article on "The Israel Of God"
    http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/

    The simple fact is that Israel was merely the nation that was chosen to bring forth the promised Messiah (Romans 9: 5) who would be the "Desire of all nations" (Hag 2: 7). It was this "Seed of Abraham" in whom all the nations of the earth (not just the Jews) would be blessed. God could have chosen any single nation on the face of the earth to accomplish His sovereign purpose of being the progenitor of the Messiah. He was not obligated to choose Israel. As a matter of fact, Abraham, was not a Jew when God called him out of Ur of the Chaldees, but was an idolatrous Gentile! So the beginnings of the nation of Israel can be traced directly to the Gentiles!
    The reason that God maintained the nation intact and dealt so patiently with them even after they imported the pagan idolatry of the ancient world into their midst and continually spurned and mocked His prophets was not due to any inherent goodness or redeeming qualities within them. Rather it was for the fulfillment of the divine purpose. Once that was done and Messiah had come forth there was no further need for the type to exist. The reality had come and the type became obsolete in exactly the same fashion as all the vestiges of the Old Covenant. The entire nation, while quite real with a rich and varied history, had served its purpose and must make way for the greater and higher reality that it represented, the church, the true Zion of God (Hebrews 12: 22).
    This is easily demonstrated from the Scriptures. Paul refers to an Israel "after the flesh" (1 Cor 10:18 KJV). By logical inference then there must be an Israel after the spirit. This is the Israel spoken of by the apostle Paul in Galatians where he states:
    "For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And to those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (Gal 6: 15-16).
    To the apostle, the Israel of God is synonymous with the new creation. Unlike the "old" Israel under the Old Covenant which had an old and vanishing way of approaching God, the "new" Israel is under the New Covenant and has access to God through a new and living way (Heb 10:20). It is comprised of both Jew and Gentile who have been made into one "new" man in Christ (Eph 2: 15) with a "new" commandment to love one another (John 13:34). Entrance into this "new" creation comes through the "new" birth which is brought about by grace, through faith in Christ and is not based on fleshly descent, social standing, or gender (Gal 3:28).
    Thus in Paul’s mind there are two Israel’s that exist simultaneously in time and have always existed in this manner. That is why he can state categorically that
    "For they are not all Israel who are who are of Israel" (Romans 9: 6 NKJV).
    Try using this type of phraseology with any other nation or nationality and see how foolish it would be. Imagine saying that, "they are not all Arabs who are Arabs"! Or how about, "They are not all Eskimos who are Eskimos". It would make absolutely no sense whatsoever. But it makes perfect sense to use Paul’s language because there are two different Israel’s – one "after the flesh", the other "after the spirit". Look again at how Paul further differentiates between the two in that same letter to the Romans:
    "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2: 28-29).
    We see the exact same truth referred to by none less than our Lord Jesus who in His revelation to the churches of Asia Minor addresses the churches at both Smyrna and Philadelphia in the following manner:
    "I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Rev 2: 9).
    "Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie – behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you". (Rev 3: 9).
    There simply is no other way to explain this than to realize that not everyone who can trace his or her fleshly descent back to Abraham can be considered to be a Jew and thus a part of Israel. Otherwise we are left with the insane possibility of someone claiming to be of one race or nationality all the while belonging to another! Further proof of this truth is attested by our Lord’s remarks concerning Nathaniel in the gospel of John.
    "And Nathaniel said to him, ‘Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?’ Philip said to him, "Come and see.’ Jesus saw Nathaniel coming to Him, and said of him, ‘Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!’ Nathaniel said to Him, ‘How do You know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.’ Nathaniel answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You shall see greater things than these.’ And He said to him, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, you shall see the heavens opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.’" (John 1: 46-51).
    The Lord Jesus calls Nathaniel an Israelite indeed or in truth. In contrast to the vast majority of the nation, Nathaniel was a true son of Jacob whom had seen the heavens opened centuries before with the angels of God ascending and descending upon a ladder. In the same manner in which God had changed this man of guile and duplicity into a true child of God and renamed him Israel, so too would Nathaniel be counted among those who had been recipients of the same work of divine grace in their heart? Clearly then it is no stretching of the Scriptures to categorically state that among the vast numbers of those who make up national Israel and call themselves Jews, there are those who belong to God and those who do not but are rather children of the devil. What else does the term, "synagogue" of Satan refer to?
    This is precisely what Jesus told the Jews in the eighth chapter of John’s gospel.
    "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.’ They answered Him and said, ‘Abraham is our father.’ Jesus said to them, ‘If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.’ They said to Him, ‘ We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.’ Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He send Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.’" (John 8: 38-44).
    These Jews that our Lord was addressing were making a deadly and fatal mistake – they were relying on their fleshly descent from Abraham to secure the favor of God. They foolishly believed that the Father of spirits was so impressed with their physical lineage that He would somehow overlook the corruption that lurked in their hearts. The Lord Christ quickly dispelled them of that notion by informing them that they were the offspring of Satan! All He received for His efforts to correct them was their hatred and undying animosity as they attempted to stone Him to death!
    One more voice to further buttress our point comes from the lips of that most eminent of prophets, John the Baptist. In the gospel of Luke, the account is recorded of John’s dealings with the Jews, in particular, the Pharisees and Sadducees, as they came to look in on what this upstart is doing. John's stinging words forcefully bring home their folly in trusting in their fleshly descent from Abraham.
    "He therefore began saying to the multitudes who were going out to be baptized by him, ‘‘You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bring forth fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’, for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.’ And also the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." (Luke 3: 7-9).
    With this is mind, it is not too difficult to grasp the power in Paul’s logic as he attempts to deal with the Israel situation in his letter to the Romans. In the ninth chapter he takes up the apparent failure of the word of God as it relates to Israel.
    "I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish myself accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons an the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all God blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel; neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s seed, but ‘through Isaac your seed will be named.’ That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as seed. For this is a word of promise: ‘At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son." (Romans 9: 1-9).
    He begins by stating that he is extremely sorrowful and deeply grieved over the rejection of the gospel message by the vast majority of the Jews, his kinsmen according to the flesh. He goes on to list the great privileges that they had possessed and mentions the promises that God had made to them. Yet seemingly, something that is not possible has taken place – the word of God has failed and God has not made good on His promises to them. The very thought of something like this occurring is intolerable as the divine purpose cannot fail. But how then do we explain the rejection of the gospel by the vast majority of the Jews? If Paul’s claim that the gospel was the way provided by God to enter His favor and receive the promised kingdom with all its blessings, then the rejection of that gospel must necessarily entail that the vast majority of Jews had been left out of the long-awaited kingdom. Thus God had failed to accomplish His purpose and His Word had returned to Him void which would be a contradiction of that which He had clearly said could never happen (Isaiah 55:11).
    Paul’s solution to this apparent Gordian knot is straightforward and simple. God certainly had made promises to Israel but He only made them to His true Israel! Not one of those promises had failed to come to pass because "they are not all Israel who are of Israel". Those Jews who had responded in faith to the gospel were members of His true Israel; it was only to them that He had made the promises. The rest were blinded (Romans 11:7). In other words, fleshly descent from Abraham did not constitute one as being included in the Israel to whom the promises were made. One had to be born into this Israel by the power of the promise. This is why Paul refers to Isaac.
    Don’t forget that before Isaac came along Ishmael was born to Abraham. Ishmael could trace his fleshly descent directly to Abraham. Yet the seed of Ishmael were not counted among the Israel of God. Why was that? Because Ishmael was born of the flesh and not of the promise. Isaac on the other hand, was conceived and brought forth by the direct activity of God. His mother Sarah was hopelessly barren and Abraham, his father, was past the years of natural procreation ability. Yet God had made them a promise of an heir. It was the power of that promise that brought forth Isaac in the womb of Sarah. In much the same manner, it is the direct and sovereign intervention of God that gives rise to the children of the promise. They are born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1: 13). Isaac thus becomes a figure for all the true seed of Abraham.
     
  10. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    8o) Well, it is not the first time I have been wrong
    about someone.
     
  11. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Sorry you feel that way. I asked the question with good intentions and directly or indirectly get labeled heretic, anti-semetic, and Nazi. So much for "Baptist Theology & Bible Study". Maybe I have misjudged some on this board also.
     
  12. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Just like it was in Paul's day, I believe this issue is becoming one of the most divisive in the modern church.

    There are many Zionist Christians today who feel they have a more significant relationship with unsaved Jews than they do with Christians who espouse "replacement theology". Apparently blood is thicker than the Spirit.

    For example, Clarence Wagner (of Bridges for Peace) has unsaved rabbis participate in his meetings, meanwhile blasting fellow Christians about replacement theology in his publications.
    I could name other organizations who operate on the same basic principle by their own admission.

    I know of a Messianic evangelist who vehemently persuaded the elders of a Baptist church not to admit a man to membership because he espoused replacement theology. Even though the man in question had held Bible studies in his home with a Jew present. How does the anti-semetic label fit there? I guess it doesn't really matter.

    Brace yourself for more of this in the years ahead.

    In Christ (the seed of Abraham),

    Tim
     
  13. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    To make myself clear: the information that I have posted here is not for the purpose of demonizing any eschatological position. I have a position, but I don't make it a big deal. When it comes to the end times, I decided long ago that I was not on the planning committee, but on the welcoming committee.

    Having said that, I repeat again that most of the literature that I've seen which advocates that today's Jews are not really descended from Abraham is usually connected with "Identity" groups, neo-Nazi groups, and other anti-semitic groups. It may be that some non-dispensational teachers have inadvertently used such material without realizing its source.
     
  14. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus Active Member

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    I am only going to throw in my 2 cents worth.
    God isn't finished with the Jews, therefore they are still here. Christians are now holding the standard and proclaiming God's truth to the world. A job which the Jews abandoned but will one day take up again.
     
  15. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    Amein! And their forerunners are already busy
    doing it.
     
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