please pick one

I selected fundamentalist, but I misread the list,,I think it just says fundamental Christian...and I support that, but never fundamentalist. They are as cultic as they come...To my mind, a cult is a deviation from basic or fundamental Christianity...At least I am using that definition.

Cheers,

Jim

 

They have a different Christ, that is why they are anti-Christ.

I know it is hard to take, but a dead Christ is not my savior, the Pope does not form a bridge to Christ or the Father for me, I don't ask for men to grant forgiveness, I don't worship Mary, I am not the Roman religion that was around with Christian names, I don't spread my faith through a physical sword, I don't steal people's money to build bigger buildings and call it "penance", I don't deprive people of God's word, I don't recrucify Christ by making bread an idol, I don't pour water on the head of an infant and say they are born again, etc.

Yeah, nothing wrong with catholic theology. Undeniably the biggest gateway to hell in existence. She might not be the whore, but she tries to dress like her.

 

Nope. I'm fine.

They believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is Lord. From what I understand about the Bible - that is what allows us to receive salvation. Not doctrine.

Not true. Where did you read this? The Pope is Christ's representative on earth. I disagree, but this is hardly something that would keep a person from going to Heaven if they believe that Jesus is Lord.

And this would keep someone out of heaven?

So? There are people who believe that Mary Magdelene was a harlot, and that's not true either. Will that keep them from heaven?

Catholics are very quick to state that they do not worship Mary.

So? How is that going to keep them from Heaven?

Actually, all you need is to trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. That's it.

How many Catholics do you know? I'd encourage you to broaden your horizons here.

 

Catholics believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. From the Baltimore Catechism: "Christ rose from the dead, glorious and immortal, on Easter Sunday, the third day after His death."

I'd love to see in the catechism or elsewhere where this is. Even if this were true, does that make Christ's salvation any less real?

Well, you should. We are to confess our sins one to another according to the Bible.

neither do they.

Let us not even get to what Protestantism has done in the name of God - see what happened as far as American slavery, what is happening in Ireland, perhaps take a look at Calvin and Servetus. Just because stuff happens in the name of God doesn't mean that God is not still worthy to be praised. Blame fallen man.

I hope that you don't. How does what happened 1000 years ago affect a person's salvation?

What are you talking about here? Transubstantiation?

Oh, and that's never happened in Protestantism! LOL!

There's stuff wrong with everyone's theology. We are all human and no one has it completely perfect. One guy did and He was killed for it. We are all human, and thanks to the grace of God, all we have to do to receive entrance into heaven is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and we are saved!

In heaven, I bet you that God places you in the neigborhood as Catholics.

By reading the rhetoric of people here, it is becoming quite clear why I chose fundamentalist Christianity as the most cultish religion of the group.

 

My doctrine states that salvation is accomplished by believing in Jesus Christ as Lord. Period. If you read the catechisms of the Catholic Church, you will see that they believe in Christ alone and in grace alone. Works are a result of faith. Interestingly enough, James states in James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not be faith alone." I think they have some Biblical support to this doctrine, don't you?

And Sacraments are ways to participate in Church - they are not a substitute for Christ's death and resurrection. Again, the Baltimore Catechism is pretty clear on that, too.

For those who are anti-Catholic, I would ask, "What is required for eternal life?" Bottom line.

 

I believe that the Catholic Church is in error on a number of points; I believe fundamentally they are in error on some aspects of their soteriology, in particular that salvation is mediated through participation in the sacraments, esp Holy Communion. However , this does not mean that they are the Antichrist, it just means that they are more in error than most other denominations (IMHO of course ), nor does it necessarily invalidate the rich vein of spirtuality they have produced over the centuries, nor does it mean that the RCC does not contain many genuine born-again Christians (I have met them and have them in my family and there is no way, absolutely no way that they are not born again, although they probably would use a different term for that). I certainly wouldn't call it a cult or damaging to individuals psychologically, unless one has in mind some of the more abusive 'Christian Brothers' and nutty nuns similar to those who taught me, who could be dangerously manipulative in the same way as some of the Protestant fundamentalist sects referred to here (I can see the bishop now: "What shall we do with these psychotic priests who are totally unfit for parish work - I know, we'll put them in charge of teaching small boys!" )

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Scott, I grew up with Catholics. I went to their catechesims, I went to there services. I know what I heard and what I saw.
Here is some foood for thought.The Pope: Vicar of Christ
Is the pope the vicar (substitute) of Christ on the earth, wielding universal power over the whole church? If you believe the catechism, he is:
"For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered." Pg. 234, #882
"The Roman Pontiff... as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful..." Pg. 235, #891


While the Catholic church elevates the pope to the position of "supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful," God's Word reveals that someone else already fills that position:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth..." John 16:13


Jesus promised that this infallible teacher would abide with us forever:

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:16

The pope has clearly assumed a position reserved for the Holy Spirit of God. It is a position no man can fill:

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." 1 Corinthians 2:11

The Apostle Paul reiterates that the Holy Spirit of God, not a man, is the infallible teacher of all true Christians:

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man' s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth..." 1 Corinthians 2:12-13

Similarities?

If the pope is Christ' s substitute on earth, there should be many similarities in their lives. Let' s see:

While on earth, Jesus never controlled great wealth. The pope controls one of the wealthiest corporations in the world.
Jesus dressed like a common man. The pope, on the other hand, is never seen in anything but regal apparel.
Jesus lived in simple surroundings, but the pope views opulence at every turn.
Jesus tirelessly served the multitudes, while the pope travels the world on his private jet, meeting with world leaders from every nation.
Most people eventually rejected and hated Jesus because He told the truth. The pope is worshipped and adored by millions worldwide.
The pope gladly welcomes the praise of men, but Jesus directed all worship to the Father, and said of Himself:
"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

Should popes accept the worship of multitudes? Look how "Pope" Peter reacted when Cornelius tried to worship him:

"And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man." Acts 10:25-26

Pope: head of the church?

The Catechism claims that:

"The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls" Pg. 246, #937

According to God's Word, the pope is not the head of the true church of Jesus Christ. That position is reserved exclusively for the Lord Jesus:

"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church..." Ephesians 5:23

Concerning the pope' s title of "Holy Father," Jesus Himself instructed us to:

"...call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Matthew 23:9

Yet, the pope not only accepts the title "Father," but "Holy Father" as well, a title reserved for God alone:

"Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy..." Revelation 15:4

It is not wise to assume a name reserved for God, for He will not share His glory with anyone:

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..." Isaiah 42:8

More Nagging Questions

Once again, Catholic doctrine and Scriptures could not disagree more. As a result, you must choose sides on each of the following questions:

Why didn' t God tell us in the Bible that He was sending the pope as the Vicar of Christ?
Why does the Bible insist that Jesus is still the head of the church, if He isn't?
Why does the Catholic church want the pope to be the final authority instead of Jesus?
Why does the Catholic church want the pope to be your teacher instead of the Holy Spirit of God?
Conclusion

Only you can answer these questions for yourself. And only you can decide which side you will believe - Catholic traditions of men... or God's Word?

"And ye are complete in him (Jesus), which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10
"And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church..." Colossians 1:18


Is the worship of the Virgin Mary a basic, fundamental doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church?

There are Roman Catholics who deny it. They “explain” the position Mary holds in Roman Catholic doctrine. There are Protestants, and probably Baptists, who deny it. There are those, Catholics and Protestants–and probably Baptists–who become indignant when it is charged that the worship of the Virgin Mary is a fundamental Catholic doctrine.

Pope Paul should be good authority. Pope Paul says that she is an object of worship. Pope Paul says that she is “the supporting light of Christ.”

Here is the prayer that Pope Paul prayed as he led 2,000 cardinals, patriarches, and bishops in a service in commemoration of the opening of the Second Vatican Council–as reported by the “Register,” the weekly Roman Catholic paper published in Denver, Col., in its Oct. 20 issue:

Pope’s Prayer

[ September 23, 2003, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Jailminister ]

 

And we as Baptists use deacons in a role that is different than what Acts lays out. Are we also eternally damned?

Having a pope does not invalidate salvation. Catholics who believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour are saved. Theology doesn't save. Christ alone does.

 

Strange Scott. You wanted proof, we provided. Whatever saves someone keeps them.
Before you get any further upset, please pray that God will show you that Catholisim is not Christianity. Anybody can get caught up in the emotions.

 

Scott, Christ saves. However it is proper theology about Christ that saves.

 

Perhaps it is you who should pray and ask forgiveness for carrying out a crusade against fellow Christians. Again - Jesus Christ saves - not doctrine... If doctrine saves, then either Calvinists or Arminians aren't going to heavenb, because their theology is wrong.

So a person who believes in Jesus Christ must be 100% correct about all their theology about Him before He is saved? By that regard, then I'm not saved, because I'm learning more and more about him each day.

And what about Christ do Catholics have wrong theology about? They believe that he was born of a virgin, is the Son of God, that He died for the sins of humanity, and that He rose again three days later and ascended unto heave. They believe that he took their place on the cross, and through belief in Him, they can be saved. How is this wrong theology?

 

Scott said:

Scott I would love to see all saved, but not all will be. Study the very roots of the catholics and you will find paganism. I have friends in the catholic church as well as JW's. I tell them things to examine and seek God about, but it is the Holy Spirit that must lead them.

 

Baptists have their roots in Catholicism, so that would mean that we have our roots in paganism. haha! Think about that statement. Again - just read the Catholic position on Christ alone means. Talk to some Catholics.

Not all Catholics are saved, just as all IFB's are saved, but anyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord is saved. If a Catholic does this, he is saved. Do you disagree with that?

 

They deny that his work was sufficient as the basis for salvation. To them, it is but a part of the foundation.

The Christ of Scriptures has accomplished all that is foundational to salvation.

You really should study more, Scott.

 

You don't understand "Christ alone," do you? Please read the actual writings of the Church instead of the anti-Catholic polemics that are around. For example, the Council of Trent says quite clearly that justification is brought through Christ and Christ alone.

And what about people who believe that man must accept Christ before salvation is given? Are they adding to salvation?

 

Scott wrongly said

Historically Baptists Are Not Protestants
Protestants date from the sixteenth century. They are the Lutherans, the Reformed and others who were once Roman Catholics and left the Roman Catholic faith to start denominations of their own. The Baptists never left the Roman Catholic church as did Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. They never left because they were never in. They did not begin their existence at the time of the Reformation but hundreds of years prior to the Reformation.
Baptists make no effort to trace a historical succesion back to the age of the Apostles. Their only claim is that at every age in church history there have been groups that have held to the same doctrines that Baptists hold today. These groups may or may not have been connected and they have been known by various names. There were the Montanists (150 A.D.), the Novatians (240 A.D.), Donatists (305 A.D.), Paulicians (650 A.D.) , Albigenses (1022 A.D.), Waldensians (1170 A.D.) and the name Anabaptists came into prominence just before the time of the Protestant Reformation.
Full historical data immediately refutes the view that there was only one religious group - the Roman Catholic church until the time of martin Luther. Anyone who claims this simply has not done his homework.
I wish to purposely introduce non-Baptist testimony to the great antiquity of Baptist people. Cardinal Hosius (1504-1579) was a Roman Catholic prelate who had as his life work the investigation and suppression of non-Catholic groups. By pope Paul IV he was designated one of the three papal presidents of the famous Council of Trent. Hosius carried on vigoriously the work of the counter-reformation. If anyone in the post-reformation times knew the doctrines and history of non-Catholic groups, it was Hosius. Cardinal Hosius says, "Were it not that the Baptists have benn grievously tormented and cut off with the knive during the past 1,200 years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers" (Letters Apud Opera, pp. 112,113). Note carefully that this knowledgeable Catholic scholar has spoken of the vicious persecution Baptists have endured, that he clearly distinguishes them from the Reformers and that he dates them 1,200 years before the Protestant Reformation.
It is also evident that the Baptists were not Protestants because they were fiercely persecuted by the Protestant Reformers and their followers. Uncounted, thousands of them lost their goods, their lands and their lives in these persecutions. Konrad Grebel died in prison in 1526. Felix Manz was drowned by the authorities at Zurich 1527. Noted baptist leader Balthauser Hubmaier was burned alive at the stake in Vienna March 10, 1528. Three days later his wife was drowned by being thrown over the Danube bridge with a stone tied to her neck. The facts abundantly attest that historically Baptists are not Protestants.
Doctrinally Baptists Are Not Protestants
The viewpoint that Baptists share common doctrinal ground with Protestant groups is not an accurate reporting of the facts. There are six striking differences.
(1) Baptists believe with all their hearts that God´s Word alone is sufficient for faith and practice. We read "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine..." ( II Timothy 3:16). Various Protestant denomination have creeds, catechisms and assorted doctrinal standards. Baptists hold to the Bible alone.
(2) Baptists believe that Christ and only Christ is the head of the Church, even as the Scripture says "Christ is the Head of the Church" (Ephesians 5:23). There is no man who has the oversight of Baptist Churches. Baptists have no denomination in the sense of an organization that controls local congregations. Each local church is autonomous and accountable only to Christ, who is its Head. A Baptist Church, while fellowshipping with congregations of like faith and practice, has no headquarters in St. Louis, Nashville or New York City. Its headquarters is in Heaven.
(3) Baptists believe in their hearts in a free church in a free state. Christ plainly taught that the state and the church each had its own realm when he said "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar´s; and unto God the things which are God´s" (Matthew 22:21). Baptists are vigoriously opposed to union of state and church and believe that a state controlled church is a wretched excuse for Christianity and a plain departure from Scripture. All of the Protestant Reformers fastened state state churches upon their followers! Today Americans enjoy separation of church and state because of the vigor and vigilance of Baptists in the early days of our national history.
(4) Baptists believe strongly in the individual accountability to God because the Scriptures clearly teach that "everyone of us shall give account of himself to God" (Romans 14:12). A priest cannot answer for you, a church cannot answer for you to God. God-parents cannot answer for you. No one is saved because of what his parents believe. No one is saved because of his identification with any any religion. He will account for himself to God. Protestants generally do not hold this Scriptural doctrine.
(5) Baptist people furthermore have always held to believer´s baptism. None of the Protestant Reformers held this Bible teaching. In the Scriptures faith and repentance always preceded baptism. On the day of Pentecost Peter plainly told the people "repent and be baptized" (Acts 2:38). This obviously means that there is no infant baptism. since infants are incapable of repenting. No unbelievers are to be baptized. The Reformers followed Rome in their teaching of baptism. Baptists have held stedfastly to the doctrine of Christ and His Apostles on this point.
(6) Baptists on the basis of Scripture have always held to a regenerate church membership, that is a membership that is made up only of people who give a credible profession of faith in Christ. In the Apostolic church only those who became believers, those who received the Word of God and who had repented of their sins, were baptized and received as church members (Acts 2:41). There was no automatic or formalistic membership in apostolic churches nor in Baptist churches today.
From the review of these simple points it is more than clear that doctrinally Baptists are not Protestants.
Practically Baptists Are Not Protestants
A few simple observations indicate that the Baptists differ radically from Protestants on an number of points. The Protestant groups look to some human beings as their founder, often even taking their name from a man. The Lutherans hark back to Luther. The Reformed look to John Calvin. The Presbyterians were founded by John Knox. The Methodists openly acknowledge John Wesley as their founder. Who founded the Baptist churches? Here is a historical question worthy of serious investigation. It is impossible to find any one man who gave rise to Baptist churches. Rather if we would name human founders, we must look back to Peter, Paul, James and John.
We differ from protestants in our birthplace. Lutherans come from Germany, the Reformed from Switzerland and the Netherlands, the Pressbyterians from Scotland, Episcopalians from England but Baptists would have to give Palestine as their place of origin.
Furthermore the creed of Baptists is not the Augsburg Confession, the Canons of Dort or the Westminster confession but the simple word of God. So it is impossible to identify the Baptists as Protestants.
Baptists have never been linked with Protestants and have never been identifid with the Roman Catholic church. Through the years before and after the Reformation they have maintained their identity and been faithful to the Scriptures. Real Baptists hold to the plain teaching of Christ and the Apostles. For these God-given doctrines they have been willing to die. Hanz Denk, a sixteenth century Baptist said "Faith means obedience to the Word of God, whether it be unto life or unto death." For many it was death.
In Rottenburg in Reformation times there were 900 executions of Baptists in less than ten years. These deaths were often vicious and cruel. The sentence for one Baptist believer, Michael Sateler read "Michael Sateler shall be delivered to the hangmen, who shall take him to the place of execution and cut out his tongue; he shall then throw him on a cart and twice tare his flesh with hot tongs; then he shall bring him to the city gate and there torture his flesh in the same manner." This was the way Sateler died in Rottenburg on May 21, 1527. His wife and other women were drowned and a number of men were beheaded.
Baptists are not Protestants, but hold tenaciously to the original precepts and practices of Christ and the Apostles. Baptists believe the pure Word of God to be sufficient authority in all matters. Baptists reject all human religious traditions and practices that have originated since the time of the Apostles.

 

The people who make up the membership of the BB cover a wide range of evangelical and non-evangelical thought. Nevertheless, the results of this poll are astounding. I wonder if some of the votes were not cast in seriousness but rather done to "get the goat" of some of us fundamentalists or to protest hyper-fundamentalism of some sort.

Andy