2 Thess. 1-11, help me

Why?? See how you have already read your conclusion in without due consideration to the text?

The DOL is the period of divine judgment on sin with particular respect to the nation of Israel (Isa 13; Joel 2; Amos 5:18; etc.). That is the Tribulation period. So we see that the DOL includes the Tribulation.

The plain unbiased normal reading of the text indicates that the Tribulation is in the DOL and answers all the problems.

The question that post tribbers must ask is, Why was this concerning to them if Paul had taught them posttribulationism? When someone comes and says that the trials they were enduring were because the DOL had already come, they should have expected it. As seems clear from the text, they had been taught that they would be gone when the Tribulation came and thus were troubled to "learn" that they were still there. Paul refute the nation of posttribulationism.

Again, realize that you have read your position into the text. Why cannot the DOL be referenced here?? If the DOL begins with the judgments (which it does) and not with the Rapture (which you have presupposed), then there is no problem. The man of sin, Antichrist, will be revealed at teh beginning of the Tribulation, and hence, at the beginning of the DOL. That does not require that the Rapture begin the DOL. There is most likely an interval between the Rapture and the DOL although the stage for Antichrist's rise is probably laid through world events that seem perfectly natural to the world.

But again, you have read your conclusion onto the text, insisting that the text must mean certain things becuase of what you believe, rather than letting teh text speak for itself.

The first had already come. The "Second Coming" can be a generic term to refer to all the end times or it can be a more precise term to refer to his coming to earth at the end of the Tribulation and the beginning of hte Millennium. Either way, the question I asked above is the more important one: If they had been taught that they would be there during the Tribulation, why was their faith being shaken?

Paul did not say that they would see the man of sin. He simply made a statement about why they weren't in it. There was no man of sin. There again, the paragraph I deleted here assumed that the man of sin being revealed means that they would have had to have seen it. I totally reject that because that is not what the Scriptures teach.

You are off base here. Paul wrote it just as a dispensationalist would expect. Your "rendering" assumes your conclusion, something that should not be assumed.

Again, you assume your conclusion. He does talk about the Rapture. That is what they were concerned about.

The biggest problem is that you are reading the text through your presuppositions rather than for what it says. Here is a simple breakdown.

1. Paul had taught them that they would be gone when the DOL with its judgments came.
2. They were experiencing tribulation (not the Tribulation).
3. Someone came claiming to be from Paul who taught that they were in the DOL, hence, Tribulation.
4. They were concerned, disillusioned, shaken in their faith because they did not expect to be in the Tribulation. They had been taught they would be taken out before that.

CONCLUSION:
1. If Paul taught posttribulationism, then he would have corrected them and said "You are in the DOL; there is no need to fear."
2. If Paul had taught pretribulationism, he would have said, "There is no need to fear; the DOL has not yet come."

Which did he say?? The latter.

As I have always said, the dispensationalist view is the only one that can consistently stand up in the face of rigid, consistent exegesis and synthesis. I have never seen anyone disprove that.

[ May 16, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Long post ... I will try to hit the highlights. First, let me say that there was no intent on being inflammatory. However, my comments about reading into the text stand. To establish the basic poitn of the text. They had been told that the DOL had already come and they were still in it. Their troubled state indicates that they had been told they would not be there for the DOL (whatever that is ... see below). So Paul had taught them that they would be gone before the DOL. The task now is to study the Scriptures to see what the DOL is. Once we determine that, then we are helped with this passage.

 

The book, The pre-wrath rapture by Marvin Rosenthal will help answer your question. A good link is www.revelationcommentary.org
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Since you are seeking answers on this subject, here is a link that might be useful to you, Pete.

www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/2thess2.html

 

That page has some of the worst exegesis I have ever seen Ken. The stuff there is really unbeleivable in many ways. He misses so many key and easy points to defend his position. I glanced at a few of the other pages on that side and found myself even more disappointed. There are simply too many mistakes for that to be credible.

 

Pastor Larry, I know that nothing anyone is going to say is going to cause you to change your mind in favoring pretribulationalism. Since someone offered a website for that viewpoint I thought I would offer one for the other side.

I do not claim to be an expert in eschatology(yet! ) so how well anyone makes their points I cannot judge at this time. The reader of various websites can do that for himself. But the author of the website I mentioned appears to be very intense and well-versed in his opposition to pretribulationalism to my limited knowledge.

 

Is there any verse that you feel would require that the day of the Lord begin before the 2nd coming?

I believe the day of the Lord will begin at the 2nd coming, and is the day we wait for (1 Corinthians 1:7-8), watch for (1 Thessalonians 5:2-6), and will rejoice in (2 Corinthians 1:14).

"Waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord" (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

"Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

"We are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord" (2 Corinthians 1:14).

Paul said the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) and the Lord said he will come as a thief (Matthew 24:43-44), and there's no 3rd coming of the Lord.

I believe the subject of 2 Peter 3:4-10 is the promise of the Lord's 2nd coming: "Where is the promise of his coming?... The Lord is not slack concerning his promise... the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night" (2 Peter 3:4, 9, 10).

Does any scripture teach that we will be gone when the tribulation comes? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?

Some say the Thessalonians were shaken about possibly missing the rapture and being in the tribulation. But the Thessalonians wouldn't be "shaken in mind, or be troubled" (2 Thessalonians 2:2) about being in persecutions and tribulation, for they were already patiently enduring both: "We ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure" (2 Thessalonians 1:4), but they would be shaken if the 2nd coming had supposedly already happened, because where was Jesus? And if the 2nd coming had already happened, then the resurrection must have already happened as well, and where were all their departed loved ones that Paul had promised them they would see again (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)? Those who spiritualized away the resurrection in Paul's day were destroying the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

In what way?

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse 8). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture. We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

Does Revelation say the seals and trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? At the 5th seal, aren't the martyrs in heaven asking for God to begin his judgment on the earth (Revelation 6:10) because he hasn't yet? Will the remaining number of their "fellowservants and brethren" that must be martyred just as they were (Revelation 6:11) be killed by God's judgment? Isn't it possible that God's judgment may not begin until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and that none of them will be directed at us Christians?

Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) go through its wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, martyrdoms, and natural disasters, just as we Christians have always suffered, and not because God was bringing judgment against us?

Is there a scripture which says the second coming is a term for the tribulation?

Note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 (ye shall see the abomination of desolation) that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:36-44 (watch).

http://geocities.com/postrib

 

The OT passages show that the DOL involves judgment and then blessing. We know from the whole of Scripture that Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation. I believe we all agree on that (no matter how we consider the Tribulation). Therefore, since the Tribulation judgments are a part of the DOL according to the OT and NT, it is clear that the DOL begins before the 2nd coming.

No one argues there's a 3rd coming. That is a straw man. But the "thief in the night" argumetn cannot be postrib because the post trib arguments give a time line which we can follow. The thief in teh night does not. The "peace and safety" that people are crying out in 1 Thess 5 is wholly incompatible with the Tribulation that we all agree precedes the 2nd coming. Therefore, the peace and safety is the end of the church age; then the DOL comes suddenly on those who are not ready for it.

No. That was the cause of consternation. There will be believers in the Tribulation who are saved. But the church will be removed. There is no other way to explain teh consternation of the Thessalonians. There is no one verse that says the church will be gone, just as there is no one verse that says the church will be here. These are the theological arguments that are arrived at by correlating Scripture. It must all be put together, not just the texts that we believe fit our position.

They were enduring tribulation, not the Tribulation. That was their consternation. They were fine in the face of trouble, but not when someone told them that the DOL had come. When Christ returns, he sets up his kingdom in power and glory. There will be no mistaking that. The Thessalonians were not worried that Christ had come to set up his kingdom. They were worried that the Tribulation had started. Had someone told them that Christ had returned, they would not have been fooled. They were eagerly awaiting that (1 Thess 1:10). That would have been no concern to them in teh least. It was being in the Tribulation that was the concern, becuase they had been taught otherwise.

You are right that the DOL will not come until then, but since the Rapture precedes those things as well that is no problem. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture. Again, that is a straw man.

I think that is the clear context of it. It takes a lot of creativity to see it otherwise. I am simply not that creative

It will not be all of "us" Christians, but it will be the believers on the earth. We have always suffered, but not in the terms that Scripture describes. That is what makes the tribulations of the Thessalonians an imposter for the Tribulation. They simply are not the same. Every time that the Bible speaks of tribulation, it should not be read as Tribulation.

There is no Scripture that says the "second Coming" is a term for anything. Check your concordance. It is a theological term, not a biblical one. It is commonly used to refer to the whole of hte end times.

Not following your reasoning here. Jesus was not speaking to the same believers that Paul was. So far as I know, Jesus was never in Thessalonica and Paul was writing to new believers some 30 years after the death of Christ. Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience.

 

The OT passages show that the DOL involves judgment and then blessing. We know from the whole of Scripture that Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation. I believe we all agree on that (no matter how we consider the Tribulation). Therefore, since the Tribulation judgments are a part of the DOL according to the OT and NT, it is clear that the DOL begins before the 2nd coming.

No one argues there's a 3rd coming. That is a straw man. But the "thief in the night" argumetn cannot be postrib because the post trib arguments give a time line which we can follow. The thief in teh night does not. The "peace and safety" that people are crying out in 1 Thess 5 is wholly incompatible with the Tribulation that we all agree precedes the 2nd coming. Therefore, the peace and safety is the end of the church age; then the DOL comes suddenly on those who are not ready for it.

No. That was the cause of consternation. There will be believers in the Tribulation who are saved. But the church will be removed. There is no other way to explain teh consternation of the Thessalonians. There is no one verse that says the church will be gone, just as there is no one verse that says the church will be here. These are the theological arguments that are arrived at by correlating Scripture. It must all be put together, not just the texts that we believe fit our position.

They were enduring tribulation, not the Tribulation. That was their consternation. They were fine in the face of trouble, but not when someone told them that the DOL had come. When Christ returns, he sets up his kingdom in power and glory. There will be no mistaking that. The Thessalonians were not worried that Christ had come to set up his kingdom. They were worried that the Tribulation had started. Had someone told them that Christ had returned, they would not have been fooled. They were eagerly awaiting that (1 Thess 1:10). That would have been no concern to them in teh least. It was being in the Tribulation that was the concern, becuase they had been taught otherwise.

You are right that the DOL will not come until then, but since the Rapture precedes those things as well that is no problem. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture. Again, that is a straw man.

I think that is the clear context of it. It takes a lot of creativity to see it otherwise. I am simply not that creative

It will not be all of "us" Christians, but it will be the believers on the earth. We have always suffered, but not in the terms that Scripture describes. That is what makes the tribulations of the Thessalonians an imposter for the Tribulation. They simply are not the same. Every time that the Bible speaks of tribulation, it should not be read as Tribulation.

There is no Scripture that says the "second Coming" is a term for anything. Check your concordance. It is a theological term, not a biblical one. It is commonly used to refer to the whole of hte end times.

Not following your reasoning here. Jesus was not speaking to the same believers that Paul was. So far as I know, Jesus was never in Thessalonica and Paul was writing to new believers some 30 years after the death of Christ. Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience.

 

Again, when you say tribulation judgments, does Revelation ever say or the context ever require that the seals and trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? And can you specifically indicate which OT and NT scriptures say or require that God's judgments in the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), which will not be directed at us Christians, must be part of the day of the Lord?

Again, I believe the day of the Lord will begin at the 2nd coming, and is the day we wait for (1 Corinthians 1:7-8), watch for (1 Thessalonians 5:2-6), and will rejoice in (2 Corinthians 1:14).

Isn't the rapture a coming?

"I will come again" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:30).

"The coming of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15).

"They that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23).

How does a pre-trib rapture not require a third coming?

I believe it can be, for note that Jesus comes on people as a thief only "if" they aren't watching: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3).

Paul said that if we watch for the 2nd coming it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

Note that between the 6th and 7th vials, at the very end of the tribulation, Jesus is still exhorting us to keep watching for his coming: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth" (Revelation 16:15).

I don't believe it is, for 1 Thessalonians 5:3 could refer to the destruction that will come upon the unsaved at the end of the tribulation and at the 2nd coming.

At the death of the two witnesses, at the end of the 42-month reign of the Antichrist, I believe the unsaved will rejoice and make merry and give gifts to one another (Revelation 11:10), thinking that now all is peace and safety, that now the Antichrist can rule unimpeded without any more plagues coming on the earth (Revelation 11:6). But little will they know that sudden destruction is about to come upon them with the 7 vials of God's wrath and Jesus' coming:

"Thy wrath is come.. that thou shouldest... destroy them which destroy the earth" (Revelation 11:18).

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10).

"Then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

While I believe the church began in Acts 2, note that the Bible doesn't refer to a "church age," but instead says that the church will continue "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21). Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23).

Again, Paul knew that the Thessalonians wouldn't be concerned about any tribulation (2 Thessalonians 1:4), but they would be shaken by the teaching that the 2nd coming had already happened, just as the faith of some was being destroyed by the teaching that the resurrection had already happened (2 Timothy 2:18).

Note that Paul nowhere teaches anyone that they wouldn't go through the tribulation, but even makes the contrary clear, for, again, in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, he explains that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse 8).

What is Hebrews 9:28 referring to?

Can you give some common examples where "the second coming of Christ" or "the second appearing of Christ" has been used to refer to the tribulation?

In the pre-trib view, in Matthew 24:36-44, isn't Jesus speaking about the rapture to us Christians, whether Jew or Gentile? Note again that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

And note that in Matthew 24:36-44 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming.

Note that Jesus tells them: "Ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" (Matthew 24:9). Would non-Christians be hated for Christ's name's sake? Are there Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5)?

Note that while Jesus described his second coming and the rapture and resurrection of believers in John 14:3, Matthew 24:29-31, and John 6:40, before the church had been formed, this in no way requires that the events he described won't happen to the church which now exists, just as his describing of salvation in John 3:16 before the church had been formed in no way requires that the salvation he described doesn't now happen to the church.