America

Walls, this is from a song I remember. Please reference anything you do not write yourself, thank you.

Nor is the song correct. There was NOT liberty and justice for all -- only for free white men....with enough money....

Songs like that are lovely, but too idealistic to be real. America was never that pure or lovely. Ask the blacks; ask the Chinese; ask the Irish if you like! Or the Italians...

Ask the native Americans.

We were founded on blood, rebellion, and conquest. To pretend otherwise is to ignore history and human nature.

Jesus said once that His Kingdom is NOT of this world. We seem to forget that a lot, I think.

 

Agreed, Helen. No country is perfect, and no country can claim to be more 'Christian' than another. It never ceases to amaze me how some American Christians seem to think that theirs is the only Christian or most Christian country on earth, or how some British Christians, particularly on the more extreme charismatic fundamentalist wing think that we here have some similarly divinely providential advantage over the rest of the world (these are the sort who tend to get dreadfully upset over the prospect of changing the coronation oath even though that pledges to uphold Anglicanism, which they hate anyway). Have you ever visited one of the British Israelite-belief websites?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Sorry, Helen, but your view of our history is jaded. We were not founded on blood, rebellion, and conquest. That would be the actions of the Spaniards in south and central America. Sure, there have always been some Americans who have mistreated others, as there are in every culture everywhere. But our founders (the Pilgrims)mistreated no one. They came to spread the gospel, and they established friendly relations with the Indians. Obviously, some followed who were out for profit no matter who suffered, but they were not our founders. It would take all day to answer all of your unfounded and inaccurate charges, but suffice it to say that the "poor blacks" and "poor Indians" and "poor whoever" sob stories are worn out at best.
This nation was founded by Godly people for GOd's glory.

 

Helen, "I rest my case, Your Honour"

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Matt,

I don't believe in British Israelism, nor that America is the "city set on a hill," etc. But to deny the goldy lives of our founders is to either be dishonest, or to choose to ignore the truth.

I certainly don't know how you can support your statement that no country can say that it is more Christian than another. It is Britain and America that are largely responsible for getting the Gospel to most of the rest of the world in the last 200 years. Do you really believe that the England out of which William Carey went was no more Christian than the India to which he ministered? Was the America from which Adoniram Judson departed no more Christian than Burma, to which he went, when that whole nation had no gospel witness?

 

Dr Bob,

What version is that? I've been KJVOnly up 'til now

 

Pastor Greg,

The issue of to what extent, if at all, the Founding Fathers were Christian has been debated ad nauseam on these boards - check out the History Forum for the most recent examples. I tend to the view that most were Deists rather than Trinitarian Christians - certainly in the case of Jefferson.

Whilst I agree that specific countries and regions can from time to time experience Christian revival eg: the Great Awakenings in North America, the Methodist revival in Britain, the Welsh Revival of 1904, and similar revivals in the Hebrides and Tyneside etc this does not mean than that nation is automatically 'more Christian' than others for all time and certainly does not mean that it is more 'special' to God. Nor does export of missionaries in vast quantities mean that; there are many other criteria by which a nation should be judged as Godly eg: how do we as individuals and as a nation through the governments we elect treat the poor and marginalised (Amos 2:6-7; 3:15; 5:7; 5:12-13; 6:4-5);(Micah 2:2; 3:2-3);Isaiah 3:14-15; 10:1-4 and 58:1-6. As already indicated by Helen, by those criteria, the US does not measure up well; neither, lest I be accused yet again of being 'anti-American', does the UK, both in our history (New Deal and Great Society perhaps excepted in the case of the US)and our present situation. Indeed, I would question the extent to which Christianity in the US and UK is a product of the Bible and to what extent it is a product of the American Way of Life/ American Dream and British cultural norms.

In addition, when you have churches in the US and UK openly endorsing gay clergy and bishops, and churches in eg: Kenya holding true to Biblical norms, which country is the 'most Christian' in your definition now?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Perhaps until there are less than ten righteous people left.

Gen 18:32...And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.

Perhaps when a little seemingly insignificant fatal flaw is exercised.

Num 20:11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice:

One thing is for sure, if you don't aim at the target, you're not going to hit it. America, as a whole, is not trying to please God. In the past, America at least gave lip service to following God's principles and Christian could say, "Amen". Now, some sort of political and purely secular philosophy is the target. One that "all people" of "every religion" can agree to. Christians cannot say, "Amen" to this sort of humanism.

 

"Amen" to that at least!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Matt,

The government does not have a responsibility to take care of the poor and needy - individuals do. Poverty is also extremely relative. Most "needy" people in the United States aren't really needy by any historic standard. They just aren't as rich as the rest of America. As for where we are today, I would have to agree with you. Francis Shaeffer said 20+ years ago that America was in her post-Christian era. I have to concur. The U.S. today is a pagan nation.

 

"It is Britain and America that are largely responsible for getting the Gospel to most of the rest of the world in the last 200 years."


"We were not founded on blood, rebellion, and conquest. That would be the actions of the Spaniards in south and central America. Sure, there have always been some Americans who have mistreated others, as there are in every culture everywhere. But our founders (the Pilgrims)mistreated no one. They came to spread the gospel"

 

Pastor Greg,

If individuals are doing such a good job, how come so many Brits and Americans are below the poverty line? Yes, my wish is that private charity was so wide-spread that poverty would be a thing of the past in the West, never mind the two-thirds world, and government intervention unnecessary. But it ain't, hence the need for government to fill the void, both at home and abroad. For instance, our governments should write off the debts of the poorer nations; this is eminently Scriptural

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Non-Baptist posting in Baptist-only forum]

[ November 16, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]

 

Well, I don't know if I can make peace here, but may I try? I will try by taking a middle ground.
Helen, and others:
There are too many surviving documents from our early history: Charters, Ship logs, personal writings that clearly indicate the motives of the early settlers. Interlaced in these writings are things like, "To spread the Gospel of Christ", "To promote the Kingdom of God", "For HIS glory". These things cannot be ignored. They speak of the heart and intent of MANY of this country's founders.
HOWEVER, there is a crack in the Liberty Bell, isn't there? There were those who thought nothing of slaughtering the natives and forcing human beings to come here and provide cheap labor.
But isn't there a radical fringe in almost everything? Case in point:
Those who by prayer, peaceful demonstrations and education seek an end to abortion I support.
Those (the fringe) who bomb clinics and take it upon themselves to kill people I condemn.
In a parting shot: I found moique's laughter at Pastor Greg's comments about America promoting the Gospel very offensive. There are missionaries right now putting their lives on the line for the Lord Jesus Christ.