Eternal Security

Matthew 16:24 and Doubting Thomas,

Thanks for the encouragement. I am distressed by the way this discussion with OSASers always turns into the accusation that we are suggesting we somehow earn our salvation. Pure rubbish! Anyone who believes that we earn our salvation by our works is dead wrong.

There are really two, no three great dangers facing our Baptist brothers and sisters today. The first is the extremely dangerous teaching of OSAS. It is dangerous because by not abiding in Christ we become so hardened and carnal that we can become spiritually dead or we can reject Christ before we get to that point. The second dangerous teaching is a pre-trib rapture. Believers looking for a rapture are not going to be looking for the antichrist or the mark of the beast. Because of their carnality they will be the first in line accept the mark and anyone who does that is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and false prophet. The last danger facing our Baptist brothers and sisters is their subjugation to religious intellectuals rather than depending on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Anyone can take the Bible and pray for wisdom and understanding (the Bible tells us to do so – James 1:5). Yet anytime Baptists run up against something that challenges what they were taught, instead of examining it with the aid of the Holy Spirit, Baptist run to Dr. So & So or Dr. Who-diddy-Who for a neat little package of Pie In The Sky (PITS) theology. It looks a lot like what Paul describe in 2 Tim 4:3-4. Of course these three dangers go hand in hand.

It’s a tirade, I know, but more people need to be saying it.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

The most obvious fact about our salvation as dealt with in the Bible is that it is not usually referred to as "salvation," or even being "born again." It is most frequently referred to as "eternal life." The Greek word for "eternal" (aionios) means forever...something without beginning , something without end, or something everlasting. This word is used to define salvation at least 52 times in the NT. Thrity-seven times it is translated "eternal," and fifteen times it is translated "everlasting" (according to the KJV ).

God describes the position we have in Him, through receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our personal God and Savior, as eternal life. If God saw our salvation position as something we could lose, He surely chose an unlkely word to describe it. And He used it 52 times!

The Bible nowhere tells us that we are to keep ourselves saved. It is , of course, very important to understand that a holy life is a constant struggle. Our sins hurts God tremendously and causes us great grief in this life and a loss of rewards in heaven. But our salvation position before God is something eternal, accomplished by God at the moment we trust the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of our sins. Paul says we are to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). But we are NOT told to work toward it, or work to keep it.

In His love,
Grace

 

Amen, Sibling ByGrace -- Preach it!

 

Matthew 16:24 and Doubting Thomas,

Thanks for the encouragement. I am distressed by the way this discussion with OSASers always turns into the accusation that we are suggesting we somehow earn our salvation. Pure rubbish! Anyone who believes that we earn our salvation by our works is dead wrong.

There are really two, no three great dangers facing our Baptist brothers and sisters today. The first is the extremely dangerous teaching of OSAS. It is dangerous because by not abiding in Christ we become so hardened and carnal that we can become spiritually dead or we can reject Christ before we get to that point. The second dangerous teaching is a pre-trib rapture. Believers looking for a rapture are not going to be looking for the antichrist or the mark of the beast. Because of their carnality they will be the first in line accept the mark and anyone who does that is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and false prophet. The last danger facing our Baptist brothers and sisters is their subjugation to religious intellectuals rather than depending on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Anyone can take the Bible and pray for wisdom and understanding (the Bible tells us to do so – James 1:5). Yet anytime Baptists run up against something that challenges what they were taught, instead of examining it with the aid of the Holy Spirit, Baptist run to Dr. So & So or Dr. Who-diddy-Who for a neat little package of Pie In The Sky (PITS) theology. It looks a lot like what Paul describe in 2 Tim 4:3-4. Of course these three dangers go hand in hand.

It’s a tirade, I know, but more people need to be saying it.

In the love of Christ,
Tim </font>[/QUOTE]Tim, I am not suggesting that your assessment implies you are earning your salvation, I am stating it as clear as I possibly can. I don't know Dr So & So, nor do I know Dr. Who-Diddy-Who but, I think I know his brother Dr. What-Diddy-Doo.
If I end up in heaven, I will have to give Jesus credit for it or I will have to give Jesus partial credit for it. Either Jesus did all that was necessary for my salvation or Jesus and I did all that was necessary for my salvation. What else could you call "abiding in Christ", "enduring unto the end", "obey", "Keeping his word", etc. These are works that Christians have an obligation, responsibility, and joy in doing, but they are, none the less, works. You said, "He gives me the
power to endure 'IF' I abide in Him." That is a work you claim will assure your salvation. It is your work not Jesus' work. You also said, "He even gave me the ability to choose to obey or disobey. I get no credit.", if chosing to disobey is to my discredit then, chosing to obey is to my credit. I liked your "boat" analogy. In it the drowning person was "rescued" but let go and drowned. I maintain that he was never "rescued" because he drowned. If you live, it is called being rescued, if you drown it is called, "recovering a body". Salvation is not the beginning of a trip that may or may not avoid hell, depending on my behavior, it is the accomplishment of avoiding hell. It is done, it is finished, I have done what it takes to avoid hell. If that isn't true then you aren't "saved" but merely on your way to being saved. The only people I have ever heard say that this position promotes a "license to sin" is people who are opposed to it. Back to the real question, what am I saved from right now, not what am I going to be saved from but, if I have salvation right now, what am I saved from?

 

You people are confusing works with obedience and are ignoring the inerrant Word of God. I listed link to help clear things up but still are ignoring the plain facts.
The Scriptures clearly show that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, apart from all works.
The Bible does not classify a sinner’s prayer, repentance, confessing Jesus, hearing and reading God’s Word, and water baptism as a form of works.
So let me get this straight what I am hearing here by OSAS, is that once a person has faith he is saved forever by grace. So if that same person decides he/she does not want to follow Christ anymore he/she still is saved? So that person can do whatever they want, commit sins?
You reply probably be like “he was never saved to begin with”
That argument is old and I have heard stories of people who were very hot for the Lord and now their committing sins left and right with no repentance.


When a person commits their life to Jesus, the trials and testings begin. All sorts of temptations and deceptions will come against the converted Christian. Through these, the Lord will know if the person’s faith is genuine or not. Through this, the Lord will know the person’s true commitment to God.
Jesus Himself was tempted in all ways that the converted Christian will be, yet without sin.
1 Pe 1:7-THAT THE TRIAL OF YOUR FAITH, BEING MUCH MORE PRECIOUS THAN OF GOLD THAT PERISHETH, THOUGH IT BE TRIED WITH FIRE, MIGHT BE FOUND UNTO PRAISE AND HONOUR AND GLORY AT THE APPEARING OF JESUS CHRIST.
1 Pe 1:6,7 NIV-IN THIS YOU GREATLY REJOICE, THOUGH NOW FOR A LITTLE WHILE YOU MAY HAVE HAD TO SUFFER GRIEF IN ALL KINDS OF TRIALS.
THESE HAVE COME SO THAT YOUR FAITH--OF GREATER WORTH THAN GOLD, WHICH PERISHES EVEN THOUGH REFINED BY FIRE--MAY BE PROVED GENUINE AND MAY RESULT IN PRAISE, GLORY AND HONOR WHEN JESUS CHRIST IS REVEALED. (The genuineness of your faith…may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ-NKJ.)
Ja 1:3-KNOWING THIS, THAT THE TRYING (or testing) OF YOUR FAITH WORKETH PATIENCE.

Note the words KEPT BY…GOD THROUGH FAITH.
For God’s power to keep or shield a person that person must not forsake, or lose, or depart from his faith in Jesus Christ. It is because of a person’s faith that they are kept by the power of God.
This is the reason that Satan attacks a person’s faith.
This is the reason that Satan does everything he can to overthrow a person’s faith.
For by FAITH YE STAND. If the person loses his faith or casts off his faith, he is no longer standing.
As a result, they will have damnation. You may say, "Where in the Bible does it say that?" Here is the answer.
1 Tim 5:12-HAVING DAMNATION, BECAUSE THEY HAVE CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH.
This verse is very clear. People do cast off their first faith. People do cast off their faith in Jesus Christ as their only hope. Those that do, shall have damnation. They had faith in Jesus Christ. They were saved. But now, they have damnation.
Eph 3:17-THAT CHRIST MAY DWELL IN YOUR HEARTS BY FAITH. Christ does not dwell in our hearts, if we have cast off our faith.
Paul said it clearly.
2 Tim 4:7-I HAVE FOUGHT A GOOD FIGHT, I HAVE FINISHED MY COURSE, I HAVE KEPT THE FAITH.
This is the way it is.

 

Good word, Matt 16:24. We must continue in faith if we are to continue to be saved.

 

The problem here is our perception of the word "abide-Greek:menao" translated three ways (generally) in the KJV (abide,dwell,remain).

Examples of its uses elsewhere:

John 1: 38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 1
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

So, this word by itself does not explicitly imply either a temporary or permanent condition or that those who are hearing Him are or have been "abiding" in Him already. It's just a statement of fact. "abide in me".

Christ taught us that there would be counterfeits and pretenders (Matthew 13, the wheat and the tares).

Do you see the embolden words above in the John 15 passage? and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:4-6 KJV

This is the same fate as of the tares in Matthew 13.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

They are the "children of the wicked one"
They were look-alikes, and never did abide in Him.

There is also the parable of the four seeds in Matthew 13. Apparently there are those who will hear and "receive" the seed even with "joy".
Three seed types never bring forth fruit indicating (imo) that there was never a spiritual birth hence they were never rooted in Christ and consequently fail to bring forth the fruit of the Spirit.

Once we "abide" in Him, no one , not even
ourselves can remove us from our Father's hand.

Some of you have been robbed of your full joy.
Sometimes it is self imposed.

John 10
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

HankD

[ March 03, 2003, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

1 John 2:19 Hmmm?

 

Matthew, You said, "You people are confusing works with obedience ". Not really, the decision to obey is not a work but the actual obedience is most certainly a work. Take water baptism for instance, being an obedient follower of Christ we are told to be baptized, I agree to that, and so far I haven't performed a "work" but, as a result of agreeing to that, I go down to my local church and get baptized. I take a change of clothes (or not), I walk into the baptistry, I am ducked under the water, I walked out. Now how can you say that is not a work. If that is not a work then I don't know what a work is. Faith without works is dead, faith with works is alive. I am saying that faith which will produce works is sufficient to get me to heaven and avoid hell. You say that faith which will produce works is insufficient to get me to heaven and avoid hell because If I do not keep it up, God will withdraw that free gift. If I don't "abide", "endure", obey", etc (which are all works on my part). If I don't do those things then I won't get to heaven. If I do get to heaven, then I get there because I endured, obeyed, and abode.
You can't say that it is 100% Jesus amd 0% me except for the works which I must perform to "stay" saved. Reading God's Word is also a work (pleasureable, but still a work).

What about this person who gets saved and then at some point begins behaving as though they aren't saved. It may be that they were never saved in the first plave. I can't make that judgment because I am not God. It may be that God is going to deal with them as with children (because they are still sons), he chastens them to bring about a change in their behavior and He will continue to do this with various means and various degrees of severity until they straighten up or, if it comes to it, he may even take their life and take them on to heaven, because they are still His, they are bought with a price.

You are confusing striving to be a mature Christian with striving to remain a Christian. Paul wasn't trying to remain a Christian he was trying to finsih the course that God had laid out for him. Works determine our rewards, our maturity, our fellowship with God and with our fellow Christians. Works are very important in the Christian life, they are absolutely essential in our confidence of salvation, our fullfilling God's plan for us, our ability to bring others into the fold. You did nothing to get saved and you do nothing to stay saved. You do a lot to be what God wants you to be.

 

Question: Didn't the doctrine of eternal security or OSAS originate with Augustine and wasn't he Catholic ??

Can anyone find any writings of the early church fathers or Baptists regarding eternal security ?

Not meaning to hijack this thread, should I start a new one?

 

No, SheEagle, the doctrine of eternal security did not begin with Augustine or any of the church fathers. It began when the first Christian was indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The comforter that Christ said he would not leave us without and would abide with us for ever. (See John 14:15-18)

 

We all interpret scripture, and therefore, what early believers thought about certain passages of scripture is important. The closer we can get to New Testament understanding is always important.

The key to eternal security is in the theological understanding of perseverance of the saints. He who has begun a good work in you, will continue.....the continuance is the work of God.

How do we deal with those who have fallen away is a matter of speculation. If the former be true, then the latter is a phenomenon that we can only speculate that perhaps they were never saved in the first place. The human will does not operate irrespective of God's sovereignty, but operates within the confines of God's predetermined will. Whilst we have a realm of freedom, it is always under the divine prerogative. Just as we have freedom in the Western World, it is a relative freedom and has certain limitations. If we can trod upon the rights of others, then it is not freedom at all. This is the freedom we enjoy, and so it is with God and our freedom to exercise our will. Hence, the question of our eternal salvation is in fact not a question at all. OSAS is an over simplification just as easy believism. This is the importance of the orderly garden of theology; we regiment the teachings of scripture and not isolate certain verses which appear to teach something else. So, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling....and couple this with the fact that what the Father has given, no man shall revoke it.

Cheers,

Jim

 

"They were never saved to begin with"
I hear that argument all the time.
How do you know your faith is real then?
By your fruits you will know them.
Okay so then maybe you or I are not truly saved and we can go back to our old ways?
Maybe the question should be are you truly saved or just think your saved because you are like 80% of the Americans that believe in God and still sin with no repentance?
I do believe a once professing Christian can turn his back on the Lord for good and lose his salvation.
Just like any gift the receiver can return the gift if they do not like it. I see it after Christmas all the time. Maybe they did not like the taste of it?
The Lord will not force anyone to serve him or there would have been no fallen angels at anytime.

[ March 03, 2003, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Matthew 16:24 ]

 

"They were never saved to begin with", is only one of the possibilities. Imagine it as a physical birth. You are born a human being just like you are born-again a Christian. You start out as a baby Christian and over time progress in maturity through the spiritual equivalence of infancy, growing pains, the "horrible twos", the cute 5-year-old, middle childhod, adolescence, young adulthood, and finally real maturity. We can make estimates about how far along someone is (by their fruits) but, we CAN'T make real judgments with accuracy because only God can do that. Maybe this person is saved but, stuck along the way and has never been able to progress toward maturity because of lack of teaching, or discipling, or pulled in a hundred other directions by well mening but equally misguided stunted Christians, or even false prophets. You do not deny that people are still human beings even though their maturity is no where near what it ought to be. Even evil people are still people. When you are born into the family of God and you have the Holy Spirit given to you, it is a done deal, it cannot be taken back and their is nothing in this world you can do to stop being a Christian, any more than there is anything you can do in this physical world to stop being a human being. Once you are a Christian, Giod deals with you as with sons, He chastens, He convicts, He does anything and everything that He chooses to bring you back into your proper place in the progression toward maturity and if you are stubborn (as lots of people are) it may come to the point where He will even take you out of this world. He does not take you out of His family any more than a human father can. A father may disown his child but that does not change the fact that that child is still the son of his father. There is nothing I can do, nothing at all to change the fact that I am my father's child. Once I am born, it is a done deal. I can change my name, never acknowledge him, never speak of him, swear on a stack of Bible that I never head of him, and still, I am my father's son. So it is with our heavenly Father. There is nothing I can do and nothing He will do that will change the fact that I am His son.

You said, "Just like any gift the receiver can return the gift if they do not like it" That isn't entirely true, you see, it isn't merely a gift handed to us, it is a fundamental change in us. We are a new creature, we don't have the power to change back to the old creature. Only God has that power and He said He never would. "For the gifts and calling od God are without repentance". We might "repent" from our decisions, He won't.

 

The gift analogy refers to the cost. It cost you nothing to obtain salvation; Jesus paid it all. It is non-refundable and non-returnable..Sorry, that is company policy.

Cheers,

Jim

 

The use of the words “eternal life” cannot be used as a substitute for the word salvation and it cannot be used to cancel out the many, many instances we are encouraged to persevere, and endure until the end. If you will search out the word eternal life you will find it is not salvation, but an aspect of salvation. It is the hope we have at the end of this life or when Christ returns. Look at the examples of that here:

Matt 19:16, Mark 10:17, Mark 10:30, Luke 18:18, Romans 2:7-10, Titus 3:7

The Bible tells us to endure, persevere, and stand fast in the faith, to continue in the faith etc. Why is there so many warning in letters written to Christians if Christians will not or cannot fall away? Does the Holy Spirit inspire men to write unnecessary things? I mean absolutely no disrespect to the Holy Spirit. But please do ask yourselves why all the warnings.

Paul said, “I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.” 2 Timothy 4:7-8 KJV

Why would he have said “I have kept the faith” if he had nothing to do with it? Is he trying to boast, he who said no man would have a boast before God?

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Artimaeus,
If you look at abiding in Christ or enduring until the end as a work, then you must also look at believing as a work. Unless you take a totally Calvinistic position and say that you really had no choice in the matter. The problem with works that Paul was arguing against is that none of us before conversion are good enough to earn God’s favor. Paul also expressly tells us that we must persevere.

Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Galations 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Timothy 2:11,12 [It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself

Paul sure spent a lot of time encouraging us to be faithful if we already will.

The boat analogy is still works. The person drowning in the murky waters of sin would have surely drown and died if the life ring Christ was never tossed and if they had never grabbed hold of it. We are saved now from the destructive, enslaving powers of sin. Ultimately when Christ returns or when we die if we have as Paul said “kept the faith” we will be brought into the boat (fellowship with God for eternity).

Thanks for taking my dry sense of humor about the Doctors in good stride.

In the Love of Christ,
Tim

 

Pastor Chet,

These were from the context anti-christs, not Christians, but false teachers.

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:18-19


In the love of Christ,
Tim