What Damage Does Arminianism Cause?

Eph. 2:8 says very clearly that Grace comes through faith. Faith is the means to saving Grace. Now, I beleive that faith is a gift of God's grace to all man, this is refered to as "common grace" not saving grace. In this passage "saving grace" comes through Faith.

The means must come before the ends.

The word "through" necessitates that faith comes before the saving grace.

 

good point but where does faith come from? when you answer this correctly, you will be a calvinist

 

No, I have not. Please see Ezekiel 36:26-27 and notice that the action is taken by God, not man. </font>[/QUOTE]In Ezekiel 36:26-27, it stresses that GOD is one who GIVES the "new heart and new spirit".
In Ezekiel 18:30-31, it indicates that MAN will GET "the new heart and new spirit" when they REPENT.

The two passages are complimentary, and neither say that having "the new heart and new spirit" come BEFORE repentance.

In regards to Ephesians 2:8, we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith. In otherwords we're not saved by grace apart from faith.

 

Doubting Thomas,

You are exegeting Scripture correctly in your post dated 2/26/03 at 9:21 a.m. The opposite view is merely the handed down dogma of that noted five stars general, St. Augustine. The alternate view of grace and then the alleged God given faith should remind the brethren where they came from and where they are right now. At least the Roman Catholic Church has evolved to a more 'Arminian view' then in days of yesteryear; we cannot say the same for our Calvinistic friends.

 

stubbornkelly,

You are correct in your statement in your post. Acceptance of Jesus is the first step toward Heaven; without faith and trust in Him there is no salvation/forgiveness from God. [St. John 5:24] Jesus said, ' . . . He who hears My Word, and believes in Him who sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death into life.'

 

Ken H,

I think that many of your persuasion have attended churches where Calvinism has been taught as though it came straight from the glorious, Presence of the Holy One, our Lord. Once the seeds start to produce they reproduce after their likeness. For some people when the word 'elect' for example surfaces, they automatically think that God has selected some for Heaven and Hell. The real question should be asked, "How does a sinner become one of His elect?" Then a Christian should go to the Bible, the Word of God, and try to understand what He is saying.

In answer to your question, in spite of the precognition because of being instructed more toward Calvinism, reading the Bible is only to try to confirm what the error already has produced in the life of that Christian.

 

good point but where does faith come from? when you answer this correctly, you will be a calvinist </font>[/QUOTE]Massdak, did you not even read my post. I say faith is a gift of God's common grace. The question is not where faith comes from, we all agree that God gives faith. The question is, to whom does he give faith. Arminians say faith is common in all men but they must exericise their faith in Christ. Calvinist insist that "saving faith" is only given to the elect. That's not biblical.

 

Absolutely and categorically false. If the Bible teaches anything it teaches that we are saved by grace. We are not saved by faith. Grace is pre-existent before we have faith.

That is a major problem with some forms of non-Calvinism - it teaches in a graceless conversion experience - it teaches a salvation that is all of man, and none of God. </font>[/QUOTE]Your going further than Calvin himself was willing to go Ken. Everyone knows that faith is the means to saving Grace and that no one will be saved without first believing. Faith comes first. Calvin taught this, but he also taught that saving faith was a gift to God's elect only. This is where he made he error. But there should be no mistaken that faith is the means that saving grace is applied no matter which side of the fense you are on.

 

Ray,
Thanks for the kind words. I've yet to see the alleged Scriptural "proof" for this whole regeneration-prior-to-faith idea.
Peace.

 

Frankly, I couldn't care less if I am going further or shorter than John Calvin or Brother Bill. I look to the Bible for truth. The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith, not that we are saved by faith through grace. If you have a problem with that, then consult God about it. He's the One that wrote Ephesians 2:1-10. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen. Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

To start with, Philippians 1:29. </font>[/QUOTE]It says we've been GRANTED to believe in Him. It does say nor prove that this "granting" is synonymous with REGENERATION.

 

Frankly, I couldn't care less if I am going further or shorter than John Calvin or Brother Bill. I look to the Bible for truth. The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith, not that we are saved by faith through grace. If you have a problem with that, then consult God about it. He's the One that wrote Ephesians 2:1-10. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen. Let God be true and every man a liar. </font>[/QUOTE]I say this with all due respect, but you guys are speaking in complete ignorance of even your own Calvinistic system.

The means always come before the ends.

I recieved a paycheck through working at the plant.

The means = working at the plant
The ends = recieved a paycheck

Just because the word comes first in a sentence doesn't mean it is first in order of Salvation. Anyone who has any working knowledge of the human langage can understand this. Let me give you another example:

I came to your house through the tunnel.

Did the tunnel or the house come first? The tunnel, eventhough it is the second noun in the sentence, is that clear children?

Calvinist historically teach that Grace is applied through the means of faith. But they go on to say that faith is given by grace only to his elect.

So it would look like this:
grace supplies faith---faith is the means to saving Grace.

I personally agree with this. Where I disagree is that faith is only a gift to the elect. I think it is clear through scripture that even lost people express faith in Christ (John 2). Faith is a gift of God's common grace to all mankind through creation. We are entrusted to be good stewards of that gift in light of God's revelations.

 

Hi Ken;
a quote from you;
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Originally posted by romanbear:
I'm sorry you're wrong, wrong, wrong. The Bible always has Faith as coming before grace if I'm wrong show me.
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Your reply

No, it is you that is wrong, wrong, wrong. Please read Ephesians 2:8.
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My reply
Ken take a real close look it says grace through faith in otherwords you don't have grace unless you first have faith.
Romanbear