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Depravity, lack of true conversion in many cases, bad teaching in others ... none of it can be directly attributed to modern versions.Originally posted by swordsman:
Well if it is not the modern versions and these versions are bringing so many closer to God. What is it?![]()
LIE.You have no proof of such nonsense;who told YOU that?? Are you repeating what someone told you?? I bet you are...</font>[/QUOTE]Good thing you don't bet for a living because you would be losing. I have drawn that from the evidence that you and others have put forth. Yet again in this post, you show no willingness to think through scriptural issues. You have not demonstrated a lie on my part; you have simply thrown out that charge. The post that I responded to was proof of my charge. Someone used my argument to prove my argument wrong. They did not think enough to figure that out.Originally posted by Anti-Alexandrian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The problem with the KJVO is that a bunch of mindless nonthinkers repeat stuff that false teachers have told them rather than thinking through and actually studying the word of God.
What standard?! Do you mean the over 200+ "bibles"(that conflict one another in THOUSANDS of places)that have their roots in the Jesuit-Egyptian manuscripts?</font>[/QUOTE]If you had read the post, you would have not made such a silly response that is off topic. The standard by which we judged translations is not 200+ translations. I never said that. You made it up to avoid dealign with teh real issue. The standard I gave was that we judge translations by their fidelity to the Greek text. Here is a place where you are unthinkingly repeating false teaching that you have been told ... yet further proof that my initial comment was anything but a lie. You refute it in one paragraph and substantiate in another.</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> How did you know they weren't faithful unless you judged them by my standard??
You mean 2 Cor 2:17 dont you??</font>[/QUOTE]Yes ... it is misused by your side. The word of God is worthy of better handling than you and your ilk have given it.</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Proof positive is that you once again misuse 1 Cor 2:17.
I have not denied anything in the KJV. In fact, I have affirmed it. It is you that has denied the teaching of the KJV. The KJV plainly teaches that Christ and the apostles used things other than the KJV. The KJV plainly teaches that things other than the Byzantine texts can rightly be called the word of God. I do not doubt that Satan tries to corrupt God's word. That is why it is important to have modern versions. That way, the word of God can be plainly understood. You simply have no understanding of this issue. Instead, you attack God's word because you listen to false teachers whose god is their own mind and their own desires. You need to repent and bring your doctrine into line with God's revelation.I do accept what scripture(KJB)says;it says that mans(and Satan's) ambition is to call to doubt and CORRUPT God's word;do you doubt this??? will you deny scripture(KJB)?
Correct!Originally posted by Askjo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by swordsman:
Christianity today is generally carnal and very very lukewarm and I firmly believe that all these new and improved bibles are the reason for it.
So in essence your still searching.?Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I agree, but the fact that they just popped up does not mean that they are not the word of God.
Now were does it say that in scripture? If we are to judge by the Greek text then why aren’t the originals around or why aren’t we able to obtain a copy like the Bible?We are to judge by faithfulness to the Greek texts, not by "power."
Boy, somebody done told you wrong. We have missionaries around the country that send in reports of people accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour, missionaries training people to become pastors of Independent Bible Believing churches so that they can reach more of their own people, and they only use one Bible, the King James Bible, imagine that huh.I guarantee you that the KJV has no power in countries that do not speak 1611 English. That is why, in so many places in America, the KJV is not buidling churches and building believers.
The texts that the KJV authors used are readily available today, and always have been. You can obtain a copy of the TR, MT, and LXX from Amazon or Barnes & Noble. My local Christian bookstore also carries them.Originally posted by HomeBound:
If we are to judge by the Greek text then why aren’t the originals around or why aren’t we able to obtain a copy like the Bible?
For what?? The only thing I am searching for is a better golf course, a better swing, and a nice day to play. I have no need to search for the word of God; I have it.Originally posted by HomeBound:
So in essence your still searching.?
The Scripture lays itself down as the basis of authority. Therefore, ti does say that in Scripture. It never tells us to judge by "power." We are to judge by the truth. As Paul says, If anyone teaches contrary to the doctrine ... that "doctrine" is found in the Scripture. That is the judge. "Power" is not.Now were does it say that in scripture?
Judging by the Greek text does not necessitate having the originals. The originals are not around because God did not see fit to preserve them.If we are to judge by the Greek text then why aren’t the originals around
We can. You can get a number of different editions from a variety of sources.or why aren’t we able to obtain a copy like the Bible?
Boy, somebody done told you wrong. We have missionaries around the country that send in reports of people accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour, missionaries training people to become pastors of Independent Bible Believing churches so that they can reach more of their own people, and they only use one Bible, the King James Bible, imagine that huh. </font>[/QUOTE]I think these people are lying or at the very least going about ministry the wrong way. I have been in foreign countries with very "successful" missionaries and have never seen one of them using the KJV. In fact, from htese missionaries I have seen nothing but contempt for the KJVO movement. They are not stupid. They know the truth and find it laughable that people think that the word of God can be found only in one English version.</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I guarantee you that the KJV has no power in countries that do not speak 1611 English. That is why, in so many places in America, the KJV is not buidling churches and building believers.
In most countries that is correct, but they use an interpreter. Some others use "Romans" or "John" that is printed in their language.Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Homebound - You're implying that missionaries, using only the KJV(whatever revision) are winning and teaching people around the world that do not speak English?
That doesn't compute.
You have God's perfect word? Since I believe the King James Bible is God's word, what is your word of God?Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I have no need to search for the word of God; I have it.
The scripture is the final authority. I never said that we are to judge by "power." I said the King James Bible has conviction power that the modern version do not have.The Scripture lays itself down as the basis of authority. Therefore, ti does say that in Scripture. It never tells us to judge by "power." We are to judge by the truth. As Paul says, If anyone teaches contrary to the doctrine ... that "doctrine" is found in the Scripture. That is the judge. "Power" is not.
Then how are we to judge righteously? If we don't have the originals, how do you 100 percent know that you are right?Judging by the Greek text does not necessitate having the originals. The originals are not around because God did not see fit to preserve them.
Now we're liars huh. Only you are right, huh. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Timothy 3:7I think these people are lying or at the very least going about ministry the wrong way.
I can see. If you don't believe it why use it, huh.I have been in foreign countries with very "successful" missionaries and have never seen one of them using the KJV.
They know what you tell them. They don't have the Greek, Hebrew, etc., etc. that you say you should have to understand and really know God's word. This is why it is so hard for me to believe that God would not use one book for his word, it's less confusing.In fact, from htese missionaries I have seen nothing but contempt for the KJVO movement. They are not stupid. They know the truth and find it laughable that people think that the word of God can be found only in one English version.
Nor do I doubt that non-KJB churches are seeing people saved.Having said that, as I said above, there are KJVO churches that are seeing people saved. I do not doubt that nor have I ever.
Yes, but they must hear the word of God to know who the Holy Spirit is and what exactly the Holy Spirit is telling them. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 also 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. How would we know how to try the spirits without a tool to try them.?What you must understand is that the KJV is not causing that growth. The Holy Spirit is. The Holy Spirit is doing the same thing through modern versions in other places.
The texts that the KJV authors used are readily available today, and always have been. You can obtain a copy of the TR, MT, and LXX from Amazon or Barnes & Noble. My local Christian bookstore also carries them. </font>[/QUOTE]How do I know what copy is right, because according to Pastor Larry, "We do not know exactly which edition of the TR was used for translating the KJV."Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HomeBound:
If we are to judge by the Greek text then why aren’t the originals around or why aren’t we able to obtain a copy like the Bible?
In most countries that is correct, but they use an interpreter.</font>[/QUOTE] So instead of having the Word of God in the language of the people, they need a fallible KJVO interpreter to tell them what the Bible says?Originally posted by HomeBound:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Homebound - You're implying that missionaries, using only the KJV(whatever revision) are winning and teaching people around the world that do not speak English?
That doesn't compute.
Better. But since you all make such a big deal out of a few "missing" verses in MV's, I can't imagine how you can approve of such a practice as providing people with only part of God's Word.Some others use "Romans" or "John" that is printed in their language.
Did you just here??? We have been through this many many times. You know good and well that I and the others on my side believe that we have God's word. You seem to be the only ones that doubt it.Originally posted by HomeBound:
You have God's perfect word? Since I believe the King James Bible is God's word, what is your word of God?
And you used that to argue that teh KJV is the only word of God. You are wrong on both counts. The KJV does not have conviction power that modern versions don't have. That is a statement from ignorance at best; at worst, it is an outright lie. I would prefer to think that you just don't know what you are talking about. You have certainly given us reason to believe that.The scripture is the final authority. I never said that we are to judge by "power." I said the King James Bible has conviction power that the modern version do not have.
Because we have more than 5000 manuscripts and thousands more versions and citations of the church fathers. There is no real doubt about God's word for most of us. You are the only ones who are confused by where God's word is.Then how are we to judge righteously? If we don't have the originals, how do you 100 percent know that you are right?
I did you say you were lying (though some of your statement certainly would make that accusation believable). I was commenting on a very specific quote you gave and gave a choice either/or. As for 2 Tim 3:7, we are learning and coming to the knowledge of the truth. You are doing neither. You refuse to learn and thus, continue on in your ignorance.Now we're liars huh. Only you are right, huh. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Timothy 3:7
Using teh KJV in Brazil has nothing to do with believing it. People you are preaching to don't understand it. Perhaps you are not aware that most other countries don't speak English. Therefore, you wouldn't use an English Bible for them. This approach of yours shows how unbelievably obtuse you are about this issue. YOu make ridiculous silly statements and act like we are the stupid people here.I can see. If you don't believe it why use it, huh.
Just as you do. You are confused because you have listened to false teachers. Paul warned against false teachers that would confuse people.; I deal with modern versions everyday and I can tell you for a fact that people are not confused about God's word. You are confused becasue you know only what false teachers have told you. You have refused to study God's word. You have instead elevated the teachings of man to a position they are not worthy of.They know what you tell them. They don't have the Greek, Hebrew, etc., etc. that you say you should have to understand and really know God's word. This is why it is so hard for me to believe that God would not use one book for his word, it's less confusing.
I don't have; this problem. I have a tool. It works great and I don't have to explain archaic language and sentence structure. They can read it for themselves and understand it just fine. Hearing and faith does come by the word of God.Yes, but they must hear the word of God to know who the Holy Spirit is and what exactly the Holy Spirit is telling them. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 also 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. How would we know how to try the spirits without a tool to try them.?
You practice the verse you love to quote from teh KJV: Study to show yourself approved unto God. Don't pussyfoot around. Don't continue in ignorance. STart studying the issue. Once you do that from an objective position, it will not take long to see the fallacies involved in your position. You don't even have to give up your KJV to do it. You can hold a biblical position and still prefer and use the KJV. No one here says you have to give it up. To do so would be a violation of the scriptural teaching on bibliology. All we ask is that you hold a biblical position.Originally posted by HomeBound:
How do I know what copy is right, because according to Pastor Larry, "We do not know exactly which edition of the TR was used for translating the KJV."
I do know what I’m talking about. I see everyday at work and then on TV. For example, the people at work that profess to be Christian listen to seculiar music, don’t go to church because of ball games, etc., dress ungodly, fifthly mouths, drink alcohol, they have no Christian attitude whatsoever and do any of them believe in the King James Bible, sure, it’s one of God’s word they say. If you don’t believe it then it can’t work in you life.Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The KJV does not have conviction power that modern versions don't have. That is a statement from ignorance at best; at worst, it is an outright lie. I would prefer to think that you just don't know what you are talking about. You have certainly given us reason to believe that.
Sorry but we are the only ones that know where God’s word is. Have you read or seen these 5000 manuscripts, thousands more versions and citations of the church fathers?Because we have more than 5000 manuscripts and thousands more versions and citations of the church fathers. There is no real doubt about God's word for most of us. You are the only ones who are confused by where God's word is.
Why try to learn where God’s word is when I know.?I did you say you were lying (though some of your statement certainly would make that accusation believable). I was commenting on a very specific quote you gave and gave a choice either/or. As for 2 Tim 3:7, we are learning and coming to the knowledge of the truth. You are doing neither. You refuse to learn and thus, continue on in your ignorance.
Sorry, but there is not a Bible for every language in the world. As Dr S. Gipp says in his book, “God has always given His word to one people in one language to do one job; convert the world. The supposition that there must be a perfect translation in every language is erroneous and inconsistent with God's proven practice.”Using teh KJV in Brazil has nothing to do with believing it. People you are preaching to don't understand it. Perhaps you are not aware that most other countries don't speak English. Therefore, you wouldn't use an English Bible for them. This approach of yours shows how unbelievably obtuse you are about this issue. YOu make ridiculous silly statements and act like we are the stupid people here.
What false teaching, that God can and did preserve his word?Just as you do. You are confused because you have listened to false teachers.
Neither do we.I don't have; this problem. I have a tool. It works great and I don't have to explain archaic language and sentence structure.
Sorry that I’m not as schooled as you Pastor Larry, I spent more time reading the word of God then disproving it. These men are not an authority over me, the word of God is. They have been doing this way longer than I and their knowledge is more than mine and what they say makes sense and everything that I have read from these men lines right up with the word of God.You make this way too easy. I don't even have to think to answer these "objections" you put forth. You put them forth because you have uncritically accepted the teachings of men who have asserted themselves to be an authority over you. In a way, it is very Catholic ... a authoritative voice who is dictating your belief apart from using the word of God as a basis.
As I do.Whenever someone refuses to use the word of God to show you a belief, you should not accept it as authoritative. You should take it as opinion.
What I don’t understand is how people believe that God created the Sun, Earth, Moon, Stars, planets, insects, birds, people, paper, ink and EVERYTHING else, and also holds your soul from going to Hell and cannot believe that God can inspire and preserve his word today.You are welcome to believe that the KJV is the best translation. You are not welcome to attack God's word in other translations simply because you "don't understand."
I know staunch KJVO's who do the same thing. KJVO leaders such as Ruckman and Hyles are hardly exemplary Christians. The biggest problems among KJVO's in my experience however has been bitter legalism and a very unloving attitude... salted with a good dose of hypocrisy.Originally posted by HomeBound:
I see everyday at work and then on TV. For example, the people at work that profess to be Christian listen to seculiar music, don’t go to church because of ball games, etc., dress ungodly, fifthly mouths, drink alcohol, they have no Christian attitude whatsoever and do any of them believe in the King James Bible, sure, it’s one of God’s word they say. If you don’t believe it then it can’t work in you life.
No you aren't. How pompous and prideful can someone be? We know where God's Word is. It is in the KJV, NKJV, NASB, Geneva, etc.Sorry but we are the only ones that know where God’s word is.
No but there should be and many are hard at work to make it as much of a reality as possible.Sorry, but there is not a Bible for every language in the world.
Oh, and I have been operating under the impression that it was every Christian's duty to spread the gospel... even those who never learn English. But since you and Gipp say differently, I guess we should all reject what the Bible says.As Dr S. Gipp says in his book, “God has always given His word to one people in one language to do one job; convert the world.
So is the supposition that any translation has ever been perfectly worded with God chosen words.The supposition that there must be a perfect translation in every language is erroneous and inconsistent with God's proven practice.”
Then why do you accept what they say instead of what the Bible demonstrates and says? Why do accept what they say in contradiction to the history of the Bible? Why do you follow them in their insistence that the Bible be withheld from modern English speakers?These men are not an authority over me, the word of God is.
Really? Where does the KJV say or even imply anything that these people teach? It doesn't. They apply double standards and fool many of those who do not "prove all things."They have been doing this way longer than I and their knowledge is more than mine and what they say makes sense and everything that I have read from these men lines right up with the word of God.
God told us all of those things. He also told us that He inspired the Bible and preserves it to us. What He does not say is that the KJV is the singular manifestation of that preservation. In fact, for most of Christian history there were no printing presses and ALL Bibles were different from each other as a result of hand copying errors. KJVO's demand something that God did not see fit to give His people in the previous 1600 years.What I don’t understand is how people believe that God created the Sun, Earth, Moon, Stars, planets, insects, birds, people, paper, ink and EVERYTHING else, and also holds your soul from going to Hell and cannot believe that God can inspire and preserve his word today.
So your assertion is that, since we don't know for sure which TR edition the KJV authors used, then the KJV must be the only perfect Bible? Can you remotely cite scripture on that?Originally posted by HomeBound:
How do I know what copy is right, because according to Pastor Larry, "We do not know exactly which edition of the TR was used for translating the KJV."
No one here doubts that God indeed inspired His Word in the original autographs.What I don’t understand is how people believe that God created the Sun, Earth, Moon, Stars, planets, insects, birds, people, paper, ink and EVERYTHING else, and also holds your soul from going to Hell and cannot believe that God can inspire and preserve his word today.
Then why not act like it??Originally posted by HomeBound:
I do know what I’m talking about.
But that has nothing to do with a particular version. That is about their personal spiritual condition.I see everyday at work and then on TV. For example, the people at work that profess to be Christian listen to seculiar music, don’t go to church because of ball games, etc., dress ungodly, fifthly mouths, drink alcohol, they have no Christian attitude whatsoever and do any of them believe in the King James Bible, sure, it’s one of God’s word they say. If you don’t believe it then it can’t work in you life.
I have seen some of them. I have read those who have seen them and done the work. The reality is that you do not know where the word of God is because you keep saying it is only in one place. Start learning.Sorry but we are the only ones that know where God’s word is. Have you read or seen these 5000 manuscripts, thousands more versions and citations of the church fathers?
If you knew, I would suggest you try to learn. You obviously do not know.Why try to learn where God’s word is when I know.?
Gipp is both wrong and right. The supposition that there must be a perfect translation in every language is certainly true. He stumbled into this accidently. God has never given his word in only one language. Since a few years after the original writings, it was translated into other languages. God's proven practice (to use Gipp's words) is to use his Bible in many different languages according to the language of the people. When you cite Gipp, you show yourself uninformed and relying on false teaching.Sorry, but there is not a Bible for every language in the world. As Dr S. Gipp says in his book, “God has always given His word to one people in one language to do one job; convert the world. The supposition that there must be a perfect translation in every language is erroneous and inconsistent with God's proven practice.”
No. You know good and well that we believe that. The false teaching is that the KJV is the only word of God in the English language. Stop playing dumb. You know good and well what we are talking about.What false teaching, that God can and did preserve his word?
Neither do we.</font>[/QUOTE]Did you stop using the KJV? That is the only way to avoid this problem</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I don't have; this problem. I have a tool. It works great and I don't have to explain archaic language and sentence structure.
But their "knowledge" is a pack of lies and misrepresentations. I have never spent one second disproving the word of God. There is nothing to disprove. I do spend time refuting false teaching. If you spend time studying the word of God, then you should know that the word of God never teaches that the KJV is the only word of God. What they say makes sense only because you are not listening to the real issues. What they say does not line up with teh word of God. The word of God never teaches that the KJV is the only word of God.Sorry that I’m not as schooled as you Pastor Larry, I spent more time reading the word of God then disproving it. These men are not an authority over me, the word of God is. They have been doing this way longer than I and their knowledge is more than mine and what they say makes sense and everything that I have read from these men lines right up with the word of God.
I don't understnad this either. Fortunately I don't have this problem. I believe that God created everything and that he preserved his word. This shows the depths to which you will stoop to misrepresent my position to make it appear as if I believe something I don't. That is unethical on your part. You know good and well that I believe God preserved his word and that we have it today. You and I disagree on the method which God used to preserve his word. And since God did not reveal that method, we are both speculating based on evidence. For you to make bold dogmatic assertions and then blame God for your position is a travesty. You must come to the place where Scripture becomes your authority. So far, you are not there. You trust the words of Gipp, Ruckman, and others more than your trust the words of God in Scripture and the example of Christ and the apostles in Scripture. It is time for you to submit your mind and theology to Scripture.What I don’t understand is how people believe that God created the Sun, Earth, Moon, Stars, planets, insects, birds, people, paper, ink and EVERYTHING else, and also holds your soul from going to Hell and cannot believe that God can inspire and preserve his word today.