A Whale of a Translation

Anti-Alexandrian said:

LIE.You have no proof of such nonsense;who told YOU that??

No one has to tell us that; the proof is posted here on the BaptistBoard every day by you and your KJV-only cronies.

 

Depravity, lack of true conversion in many cases, bad teaching in others ... none of it can be directly attributed to modern versions.

 

LIE.You have no proof of such nonsense;who told YOU that?? Are you repeating what someone told you?? I bet you are...</font>[/QUOTE]Good thing you don't bet for a living because you would be losing. I have drawn that from the evidence that you and others have put forth. Yet again in this post, you show no willingness to think through scriptural issues. You have not demonstrated a lie on my part; you have simply thrown out that charge. The post that I responded to was proof of my charge. Someone used my argument to prove my argument wrong. They did not think enough to figure that out.

What standard?! Do you mean the over 200+ "bibles"(that conflict one another in THOUSANDS of places)that have their roots in the Jesuit-Egyptian manuscripts?</font>[/QUOTE]If you had read the post, you would have not made such a silly response that is off topic. The standard by which we judged translations is not 200+ translations. I never said that. You made it up to avoid dealign with teh real issue. The standard I gave was that we judge translations by their fidelity to the Greek text. Here is a place where you are unthinkingly repeating false teaching that you have been told ... yet further proof that my initial comment was anything but a lie. You refute it in one paragraph and substantiate in another.

You mean 2 Cor 2:17 dont you??</font>[/QUOTE]Yes ... it is misused by your side. The word of God is worthy of better handling than you and your ilk have given it.

I have not denied anything in the KJV. In fact, I have affirmed it. It is you that has denied the teaching of the KJV. The KJV plainly teaches that Christ and the apostles used things other than the KJV. The KJV plainly teaches that things other than the Byzantine texts can rightly be called the word of God. I do not doubt that Satan tries to corrupt God's word. That is why it is important to have modern versions. That way, the word of God can be plainly understood. You simply have no understanding of this issue. Instead, you attack God's word because you listen to false teachers whose god is their own mind and their own desires. You need to repent and bring your doctrine into line with God's revelation.

 

Correct!

We recongnize this problem that Christians has today -- more modern versions -- more "lax" moral life!

Pray for them! </font>[/QUOTE]n i thot some people 400 yrs ago led a lax moral life:

James' Letters of H. Desire

More on the stockinged Majesty

 

So in essence your still searching.?

Now were does it say that in scripture? If we are to judge by the Greek text then why aren’t the originals around or why aren’t we able to obtain a copy like the Bible?

Boy, somebody done told you wrong. We have missionaries around the country that send in reports of people accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour, missionaries training people to become pastors of Independent Bible Believing churches so that they can reach more of their own people, and they only use one Bible, the King James Bible, imagine that huh.

 

The texts that the KJV authors used are readily available today, and always have been. You can obtain a copy of the TR, MT, and LXX from Amazon or Barnes & Noble. My local Christian bookstore also carries them.

 

For what?? The only thing I am searching for is a better golf course, a better swing, and a nice day to play. I have no need to search for the word of God; I have it.

The Scripture lays itself down as the basis of authority. Therefore, ti does say that in Scripture. It never tells us to judge by "power." We are to judge by the truth. As Paul says, If anyone teaches contrary to the doctrine ... that "doctrine" is found in the Scripture. That is the judge. "Power" is not.

Judging by the Greek text does not necessitate having the originals. The originals are not around because God did not see fit to preserve them.

We can. You can get a number of different editions from a variety of sources.

Boy, somebody done told you wrong. We have missionaries around the country that send in reports of people accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour, missionaries training people to become pastors of Independent Bible Believing churches so that they can reach more of their own people, and they only use one Bible, the King James Bible, imagine that huh. </font>[/QUOTE]I think these people are lying or at the very least going about ministry the wrong way. I have been in foreign countries with very "successful" missionaries and have never seen one of them using the KJV. In fact, from htese missionaries I have seen nothing but contempt for the KJVO movement. They are not stupid. They know the truth and find it laughable that people think that the word of God can be found only in one English version.

Having said that, as I said above, there are KJVO churches that are seeing people saved. I do not doubt that nor have I ever. What you must understand is that the KJV is not causing that growth. The Holy Spirit is. The Holy Spirit is doing the same thing through modern versions in other places.

 

In most countries that is correct, but they use an interpreter. Some others use "Romans" or "John" that is printed in their language.

 

You have God's perfect word? Since I believe the King James Bible is God's word, what is your word of God?

The scripture is the final authority. I never said that we are to judge by "power." I said the King James Bible has conviction power that the modern version do not have.

Then how are we to judge righteously? If we don't have the originals, how do you 100 percent know that you are right?

Now we're liars huh. Only you are right, huh. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Timothy 3:7

I can see. If you don't believe it why use it, huh.

They know what you tell them. They don't have the Greek, Hebrew, etc., etc. that you say you should have to understand and really know God's word. This is why it is so hard for me to believe that God would not use one book for his word, it's less confusing.

Nor do I doubt that non-KJB churches are seeing people saved.

Yes, but they must hear the word of God to know who the Holy Spirit is and what exactly the Holy Spirit is telling them. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 also 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. How would we know how to try the spirits without a tool to try them.?

 

The texts that the KJV authors used are readily available today, and always have been. You can obtain a copy of the TR, MT, and LXX from Amazon or Barnes & Noble. My local Christian bookstore also carries them. </font>[/QUOTE]How do I know what copy is right, because according to Pastor Larry, "We do not know exactly which edition of the TR was used for translating the KJV."

 

In most countries that is correct, but they use an interpreter.</font>[/QUOTE] So instead of having the Word of God in the language of the people, they need a fallible KJVO interpreter to tell them what the Bible says?

Isn't that sort of what the RCC did with their priest for hundreds of years? They considered the Latin Vulgate to have displace the Greek as the only God approved version. Only the priest and elite could read Latin so the Bible said what the RCC said it said. I guess you know where that practice led.

Better. But since you all make such a big deal out of a few "missing" verses in MV's, I can't imagine how you can approve of such a practice as providing people with only part of God's Word.

 

Did you just here??? We have been through this many many times. You know good and well that I and the others on my side believe that we have God's word. You seem to be the only ones that doubt it.

And you used that to argue that teh KJV is the only word of God. You are wrong on both counts. The KJV does not have conviction power that modern versions don't have. That is a statement from ignorance at best; at worst, it is an outright lie. I would prefer to think that you just don't know what you are talking about. You have certainly given us reason to believe that.

Because we have more than 5000 manuscripts and thousands more versions and citations of the church fathers. There is no real doubt about God's word for most of us. You are the only ones who are confused by where God's word is.

I did you say you were lying (though some of your statement certainly would make that accusation believable). I was commenting on a very specific quote you gave and gave a choice either/or. As for 2 Tim 3:7, we are learning and coming to the knowledge of the truth. You are doing neither. You refuse to learn and thus, continue on in your ignorance.

Using teh KJV in Brazil has nothing to do with believing it. People you are preaching to don't understand it. Perhaps you are not aware that most other countries don't speak English. Therefore, you wouldn't use an English Bible for them. This approach of yours shows how unbelievably obtuse you are about this issue. YOu make ridiculous silly statements and act like we are the stupid people here.

Just as you do. You are confused because you have listened to false teachers. Paul warned against false teachers that would confuse people.; I deal with modern versions everyday and I can tell you for a fact that people are not confused about God's word. You are confused becasue you know only what false teachers have told you. You have refused to study God's word. You have instead elevated the teachings of man to a position they are not worthy of.

God has never used just one book as his word. From the very beginning, there were copies passed down that were handwritten.

You have a hard time understanding that but you must realize that your understanding is not the test of truth. God's word it.

I don't have; this problem. I have a tool. It works great and I don't have to explain archaic language and sentence structure. They can read it for themselves and understand it just fine. Hearing and faith does come by the word of God.

You make this way too easy. I don't even have to think to answer these "objections" you put forth. You put them forth because you have uncritically accepted the teachings of men who have asserted themselves to be an authority over you. In a way, it is very Catholic ... a authoritative voice who is dictating your belief apart from using the word of God as a basis. Whenever someone refuses to use the word of God to show you a belief, you should not accept it as authoritative. You should take it as opinion. You are welcome to believe that the KJV is the best translation. You are not welcome to attack God's word in other translations simply because you "don't understand."

 

You practice the verse you love to quote from teh KJV: Study to show yourself approved unto God. Don't pussyfoot around. Don't continue in ignorance. STart studying the issue. Once you do that from an objective position, it will not take long to see the fallacies involved in your position. You don't even have to give up your KJV to do it. You can hold a biblical position and still prefer and use the KJV. No one here says you have to give it up. To do so would be a violation of the scriptural teaching on bibliology. All we ask is that you hold a biblical position.

 

Round and round we go...

This is a a cycle which has gone around several times.

Which is the real Word of God?

Which KJV is the real Word of God.

Oh, there's only hundreds of word differences between the 1611 Apocrypha honoring version and the 1769 instead of the thousands between the MV's (most of which are choices of synonyms).

How many differences does it take for the statement "things which are different are not the same" to be true? I'll make it easy, ONE!

Which is the real KJV? 1611 with Apocrypha?
1769? Oxford or Cambridge edition?

HankD

 

I do know what I’m talking about. I see everyday at work and then on TV. For example, the people at work that profess to be Christian listen to seculiar music, don’t go to church because of ball games, etc., dress ungodly, fifthly mouths, drink alcohol, they have no Christian attitude whatsoever and do any of them believe in the King James Bible, sure, it’s one of God’s word they say. If you don’t believe it then it can’t work in you life.

Sorry but we are the only ones that know where God’s word is. Have you read or seen these 5000 manuscripts, thousands more versions and citations of the church fathers?

Why try to learn where God’s word is when I know.?

Sorry, but there is not a Bible for every language in the world. As Dr S. Gipp says in his book, “God has always given His word to one people in one language to do one job; convert the world. The supposition that there must be a perfect translation in every language is erroneous and inconsistent with God's proven practice.”

What false teaching, that God can and did preserve his word?

Neither do we.

Sorry that I’m not as schooled as you Pastor Larry, I spent more time reading the word of God then disproving it. These men are not an authority over me, the word of God is. They have been doing this way longer than I and their knowledge is more than mine and what they say makes sense and everything that I have read from these men lines right up with the word of God.

As I do.

What I don’t understand is how people believe that God created the Sun, Earth, Moon, Stars, planets, insects, birds, people, paper, ink and EVERYTHING else, and also holds your soul from going to Hell and cannot believe that God can inspire and preserve his word today.

 

I know staunch KJVO's who do the same thing. KJVO leaders such as Ruckman and Hyles are hardly exemplary Christians. The biggest problems among KJVO's in my experience however has been bitter legalism and a very unloving attitude... salted with a good dose of hypocrisy.

No you aren't. How pompous and prideful can someone be? We know where God's Word is. It is in the KJV, NKJV, NASB, Geneva, etc.

You really need to get a copy of the KJV translator's "To the Reader" and let them educate you on this issue. When they released their modern version (the KJV) undoubtedly some of the same issues and arguments arose. But then again, they had the force of gov't on their side so when it didn't achieve public acceptance other versions were outlawed.

No but there should be and many are hard at work to make it as much of a reality as possible.

Oh, and I have been operating under the impression that it was every Christian's duty to spread the gospel... even those who never learn English. But since you and Gipp say differently, I guess we should all reject what the Bible says.

So is the supposition that any translation has ever been perfectly worded with God chosen words.

Then why do you accept what they say instead of what the Bible demonstrates and says? Why do accept what they say in contradiction to the history of the Bible? Why do you follow them in their insistence that the Bible be withheld from modern English speakers?

Really? Where does the KJV say or even imply anything that these people teach? It doesn't. They apply double standards and fool many of those who do not "prove all things."

God told us all of those things. He also told us that He inspired the Bible and preserves it to us. What He does not say is that the KJV is the singular manifestation of that preservation. In fact, for most of Christian history there were no printing presses and ALL Bibles were different from each other as a result of hand copying errors. KJVO's demand something that God did not see fit to give His people in the previous 1600 years.

 

So your assertion is that, since we don't know for sure which TR edition the KJV authors used, then the KJV must be the only perfect Bible? Can you remotely cite scripture on that?

 

No one here doubts that God indeed inspired His Word in the original autographs.

No one doubts that God is entirely capable of preserving His Word. The question is to what degree of perfection? Jesus said every jot and tittle. Now this of course implies the Hebrew since there are no jots (yods) or tittles (Hebrew particles) in English.

Your analogy of the creation and your comparison to the preservation of the Word of God is flawed or at very least bad for the point you are trying to make. Though the creation started out "very good" something happened (namely sin) and the creation suffered:

Romans 8:
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

So, according to this model, the Word of God is also awaiting the sons of God to deliver it from the "bondage of corruption".

If you say that the KJV is that restoration (which has several problems one of which is - which revision(1611-apocrypha/1769)/edition-Oxford/Cambridge) is the Authorized Version?

Once you decide that then you are (by saying which is "Authorized") also attributing the Anglican Church with apostolic authority.
Why then are you a Baptist and not an Anglican?

HankD

 

Then why not act like it??

But that has nothing to do with a particular version. That is about their personal spiritual condition.

I have seen some of them. I have read those who have seen them and done the work. The reality is that you do not know where the word of God is because you keep saying it is only in one place. Start learning.

If you knew, I would suggest you try to learn. You obviously do not know.

Gipp is both wrong and right. The supposition that there must be a perfect translation in every language is certainly true. He stumbled into this accidently. God has never given his word in only one language. Since a few years after the original writings, it was translated into other languages. God's proven practice (to use Gipp's words) is to use his Bible in many different languages according to the language of the people. When you cite Gipp, you show yourself uninformed and relying on false teaching.

No. You know good and well that we believe that. The false teaching is that the KJV is the only word of God in the English language. Stop playing dumb. You know good and well what we are talking about.

Neither do we.</font>[/QUOTE]Did you stop using the KJV? That is the only way to avoid this problem

But their "knowledge" is a pack of lies and misrepresentations. I have never spent one second disproving the word of God. There is nothing to disprove. I do spend time refuting false teaching. If you spend time studying the word of God, then you should know that the word of God never teaches that the KJV is the only word of God. What they say makes sense only because you are not listening to the real issues. What they say does not line up with teh word of God. The word of God never teaches that the KJV is the only word of God.

I don't understnad this either. Fortunately I don't have this problem. I believe that God created everything and that he preserved his word. This shows the depths to which you will stoop to misrepresent my position to make it appear as if I believe something I don't. That is unethical on your part. You know good and well that I believe God preserved his word and that we have it today. You and I disagree on the method which God used to preserve his word. And since God did not reveal that method, we are both speculating based on evidence. For you to make bold dogmatic assertions and then blame God for your position is a travesty. You must come to the place where Scripture becomes your authority. So far, you are not there. You trust the words of Gipp, Ruckman, and others more than your trust the words of God in Scripture and the example of Christ and the apostles in Scripture. It is time for you to submit your mind and theology to Scripture.