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"Scripture does not talk about it much."

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Jul 8, 2003.

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  1. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    I'm not speaking for him, but I understood his point to be more like this: if someone is "totally depraved" *before* they are hardened, how can they be hardened further than they already are? Sort of like: if you're lying down on the ground, how can you change position so you're even lower than that? How can a temperature go below absolute zero? What's the point in subtracting 10 from negative infinity?
     
    #21 BrianT, Jul 9, 2003
  2. Sola-Scriptura

    Sola-Scriptura New Member

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    Brian T said:
    2 Timothy 3:13
    But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

    Eph. 2:3 says we were children of wrath by nature.(Total Depravity) 2 Tim. 3:13 says that those children of wrath can grow worse and worse. (hardening).We don't grow more sinful in our nature by sinning. However, the references given about hardness and hardening are not referring to a sinners nature, but to the activity of their sinful mind and lifestyle. When Romans 1 says God gave them over...he gave them over to an ever deepening expression of sinful thinking and behavior, not to a deeper or worse sinful nature. Remember, no believer in the Doctrines of Grace holds that God made them depraved. That is from Adam's sin, however it is passed to all his descendants by nature. God hardens those that are already depraved as just punishment for their ever increasing wickedness.
    Brother Bill said:
    We are saying that people can't respond to the Gospel because they are sinful by nature, dead in sin; yet you are saying that people can't respond because of God's hardening of them in this life.
    Hmmmm.... we say hardening comes from sin which springs from a depraved nature, thereby charging ourselves with the problem. You say hardening is the reason we don't believe, thereby seemingly charging God with the problem.
    If we have a "pretty good" nature to begin with, then where does sin spring from? And what right does God have to harden us so we can't believe. But if we are sinful by nature and by deeds, God deals with us justly if he hardens us.
     
    #22 Sola-Scriptura, Jul 9, 2003
  3. William C

    William C New Member

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    I apply hardening to man nature and inablity due to the effects of sin and rebellion. What exactly do you apply it to Larry?

    Asked and answered. I have given you names but you dismiss them so what the point. You are lying here Larry. You say I have given NO support, you know for a fact that is an out right lie. I have given you two scholars and I even quoted a whole chapter from Arminius back a few months ago. Remember we got into it about you not being fimilar with Armininus' writings?

    Ladies and Gentlemen, notice how Larry skirts around the debate by saying that he believes what scritpure says about hardening but he is not willing to be specific about what he believes that is. This is a diversionary tactic in which he dismisses my interpretation without any grounds and puts forth his belief as being in line with scripture while convenently leaving out his beliefs and the scriptural support for them.

    I'm not sure to what you are warning me about. I'm no more personal with you than you are with me. I claim that your posts give the impression that you have no real grasp of the historical issues of this debate and that I can't respect the action of dismissing my arguements as being irrelevant. How is that more personal than the things you, Glen and others say all the time about us? This is exacly the kind of biased abuse of power I've been complaining about on this board.
     
    #23 William C, Jul 10, 2003
  4. William C

    William C New Member

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    No, that's not what I'm saying. I've never stated that any one was "upright" as if they were sinless. I've simply argued that they are not totally unable to respond to God's calling through the words of the gospel as Total Depravity teaches.

    Why do you think Jesus uses a child as an example of one who is fit for the kingdom of heaven? Was he not born "totally depraved"? Children aren't typically hardened by the sin of the world. They are open and receptive and Christ points to that as a quality we must have.

    We are not born hardened, we become hardened. And there is a difference between what scholars call judicial hardening and self-hardening. Judicial hardening is that act of God sealing one in their hardened condition as we see in Pharaoh. He initially decided not to let the Israelites go. That was HIS decision, but God hardened him in that decision so that the plagues would not convince him to release the slaves before the right time.

    So too, God judicially hardened Israel so that they would not believe in Christ before it was the right time. Despite what Larry says this is not some new doctrine. Many commentaries explain hardening in this manner.

    I do believe that it is God who soften our hearts, but you must understand the means by which he chooses to that. You assume that its through a secret, inward, irresistable calling that is never expounded upon in the scripture. I believe, as scripture clearly teaches, that God uses the gospel and life circumstances to bring conviction and brokenness but that these things can be resisted and denied by man's own will thus making them truely without excuse on that day of judgement.
     
    #24 William C, Jul 10, 2003
  5. Sola-Scriptura

    Sola-Scriptura New Member

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    You seem to take the fall quite lightly, brother. Were we only slightly wounded by it? Romans 5 teaches that through onesin came: death to everyone, sin in everyone, and judgement on everyone.
    Rom 5:19
    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. We are "in Adam" and helpless sinners, DEAD in tresspasses and sins. We, like Lazarus, will not "come forth" without the specific, redemptive, call of the Lord Jesus.


    Ephesians 2:1, 3b-5
    And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins...and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
    4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were deadin trespasses,made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
    Colossians 2:13
    And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
    Brother Bill said:
    God's calling is the proclamation of the Gospel. It is the new birth by the Spirit that is secret, inward and irresistable...thank God!
    John 3:8
    The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
    He "makes" you alive so that when the call of the Gospel comes to you, you HAVE eyes to see and ears to hear.
     
    #25 Sola-Scriptura, Jul 10, 2003
  6. William C

    William C New Member

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    Yes, I'm fimiliar with the whole we were born dead so that must mean we were born unable to believe the gospel routine. Being Spritually dead doesn't have to mean complete inablity to respond to God's call through the Gospel.

    In fact, Paul used the same analogy of being "dead" when he spoke of Christians being dead to sin. Does that mean were are UNABLE to sin? No, it simply means that is not our desire and that we now have a new desire, so too when we were spiritually dead we only desired sin because that is all we knew, but when the Holy Spirit inspired word is spoken it brings faith to all who choose to accept it.

    Can you show me in scripture where being "dead spiritually" is linked to man's inablity to respond to the power of the gospel message? If not, you only have speculation.

    You assume that one is made alive before belief. The scripture seems to indicate that it is through faith that we are made alive.


    Jas 1:18
    Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

    In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph. 1

    Notice the order this happens. The word of truth, which is the gospel calling is heard and believed, then we are "BROUGHT FORTH."


    Brother Bill said:
    I'm just using the historical Calvinistic terminology "irresistable calling" which is obviously not the simple general call of the gospel. You should know that.

    But in any case the new birth is accomplished through faith, not the other way around.

    I think this is where Calvinists miss the boat. You seem to think the Spirit works indepantantly of the Gospel. You don't seem to see that the Spirit brought the Word. The word, the gospel is the very words of the Spirit. People seem to think that the gospel is preached and sometime before that the Spirit worked. No, the gospel is apart of the Spirits working, it has the power. You make it seem as if the gospel has no power unless the Spirit works independantly of it and prior to it. That is not biblical. The work of the Spirit is bringing the Gospel to all man. "The Spirit of the Bride says Come!" Your gospel has no power, no strength.
     
    #26 William C, Jul 10, 2003
  7. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    2 Timothy 3:13
    But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

    Eph. 2:3 says we were children of wrath by nature.(Total Depravity) 2 Tim. 3:13 says that those children of wrath can grow worse and worse. (hardening).We don't grow more sinful in our nature by sinning. However, the references given about hardness and hardening are not referring to a sinners nature, but to the activity of their sinful mind and lifestyle. When Romans 1 says God gave them over...he gave them over to an ever deepening expression of sinful thinking and behavior, not to a deeper or worse sinful nature. Remember, no believer in the Doctrines of Grace holds that God made them depraved. That is from Adam's sin, however it is passed to all his descendants by nature. God hardens those that are already depraved as just punishment for their ever increasing wickedness.
    Brother Bill said:
    We are saying that people can't respond to the Gospel because they are sinful by nature, dead in sin; yet you are saying that people can't respond because of God's hardening of them in this life.
    Hmmmm.... we say hardening comes from sin which springs from a depraved nature, thereby charging ourselves with the problem. You say hardening is the reason we don't believe, thereby seemingly charging God with the problem.
    If we have a "pretty good" nature to begin with, then where does sin spring from? And what right does God have to harden us so we can't believe. But if we are sinful by nature and by deeds, God deals with us justly if he hardens us.     </font>[/QUOTE]All these scriptures do is refute the doctrine of Total depravity. If one can become worse than before, the condition they were in before was not total depravity.
     
    #27 Yelsew, Jul 10, 2003
  8. William C

    William C New Member

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    Calvinists are quick to say that Total Depravity doesn't mean we are as bad as we could be, but that we are guilty and totally unable to believe or even understand the the truth of God.

    That is why these verses are not even addressing the issue at hand. Hardening is not talking about people becoming as bad as they can be, its talking about their inability to believe, understand, see or hear so that they can turn and be healed.
     
    #28 William C, Jul 11, 2003
  9. Jacob

    Jacob Member

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    Brother Bill, you are making good sense! I find all to often Calvinists make a serious categorical mistake when they equate physical death to spiritual death.

    I enjoy your posts.

    Jaocb.
     
    #29 Jacob, Jul 11, 2003
  10. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    So, we come back to basic english and must argue why total does not mean tolal. Is this the same argument as what is is?

    Of course, Bro Bill, you know I'm with you on these issues. I just find it incredible that mature folks speaking on the same subject have such diverse understandings.
     
    #30 Yelsew, Jul 11, 2003
  11. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I read somewhere that a man said to another man seeking, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"

    This is pretty plain to me.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
    #31 Frogman, Jul 11, 2003
  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Well Brethren I thought I would just drop by and check on the action... Question when God passed the curse on Adam and Eve... Dying thou shalt die is the proper interpretation of the passage... Was Adam and Eve entirely DEAD!... Body... Soul... And Spirit?... Total Depravity... Or just playing DEAD!... Roll over Adam play DEAD!... I'll let you other brethren duke it out and I see the Calvinist and Primitives are just ignoring you other brethren of the other persuasion and leting you ramble on!

    Would really get into the fray but hey in approximately 11 months Brother Glen is getting married... I'm not just going to show up at the church and tie the knot I'm older and wiser now after having been previously married for 30 years... We are planning everything together and I am as happy as a clam. :D So on April the 4th of 2004 Brother Glen is entering the second time into wedded bliss and the Mrs and I will be very busy [​IMG] [​IMG] ... May drop in from time to time if I desire but then again may not... It just depends... Pastor Larry don't take no guff from no one so behave yourselves!... Btw... Brother Bill were you ever Totally Depraved or just playing DEAD? [​IMG] ... Brother Glen [​IMG] :D
     
    #32 tyndale1946, Jul 11, 2003
  13. William C

    William C New Member

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    Thank you Jacob. Sometimes I start to wonder if I just can't write out my thoughts very well after reading the Calvinists responses to my posts. I know that my arguments make sence when I speak with Calvinists about them, but for some reason when I'm on this board the response is so much different. It's reassuring to know that I am making sense to some of you who are willing to objectively deal with these issues. It makes me think that those who say I'm not making any sense, or that my posts are irrelevant to this discussion are just using those arguments as diversions because they don't know how to answer these arguments. They don't seem to realize that just does more damage to their cause.
     
    #33 William C, Jul 11, 2003
  14. William C

    William C New Member

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    They don't teach that "total" is in relation to how sinful we are. They teach that "total" is in reference to how unable we are without the "irresistable call" of God. That is the part of "total" I take issue with. But you are right it does become quite semanitical.

    Yes, someone else brought this up in another post. If Calvinism is true and God is the one who is completely responsible for our belief, then why does he sovereignly will that some of us believe Calvinism and others of us don't? That is something for our brethern to ponder.
     
    #34 William C, Jul 11, 2003
  15. William C

    William C New Member

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    Yes, Dallas that is very plain.

    The question is not whether we must be born again to see the Kingdom. We all affirm that truth.

    The question is: What is the means by which a man is born again?

    Calvinists say it is through the principles of TULIP

    Arminians say it is through Faith.

    (Yes, I know the principles of TULIP include faith as well, but you don't include faith as a means to new birth, but new birth as a means to faith. I don't see that supported in the scripture.)
     
    #35 William C, Jul 11, 2003
  16. William C

    William C New Member

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    Glen, first let me congradulate you on your wedding announcement, I'm very happy for you. [​IMG]

    Second, I never said I wasn't Spiritually Dead. I simply stated that the analogy of Spritual death doesn't always have to mean total inablity, especially in response to the powerful words of our Lord's gospel message!

    Yes, if the gospel was never preached or God never interviened in the way that He does we would be totally unable to respond, WHY? Because their would be nothing to respond to. The fact that the gospel is here and is powerful forces each one who is confronted with it to respond, if you teach that man is incapable of understanding that message or even believing that message then you give them an excuse on that final day of judgement.
     
    #36 William C, Jul 11, 2003
  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Brother Bill... I believe in Spiritual Regeneration not Gospel Regeneration!... So what is the written gospel for?... Food for the sheep and instruction on how to love God and their fellowman here in the world on their way to glory!... It is for those already regenerated eternally not a means to get them regenerated!... To each his own!... Brother Glen [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #37 tyndale1946, Jul 11, 2003
  18. Sularis

    Sularis Member

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    Woah there Glen

    The Bible/Scripture is not for unbelievers?

    Thats its sole audience

    You are an unbeliever - even as a Christian you are not perfect - you are flawed - The Bible is for you

    The Bible is for anyone who is not Christlike

    Im not Christlike - Im working on it - but Im not all the way there yet - Hopefully God will show me a few shortcuts ;)
     
    #38 Sularis, Jul 11, 2003
  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Whoa there Sularis... The natural man receiveth not the things of God because they are spiritually discerned!... The Bible is for the regenerated believer... Since both Jews and Gentiles are in unbelief according to Romans where does the belief come from?... GOD!... The scriptures are for the regenerated believer not the unregenerate... Unless the unregenerate is regenerated according to the will and purpose of God!... Regeneration means... Again Genesis... Born Again... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
    #39 tyndale1946, Jul 11, 2003
  20. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    And born again or "anothen" means from above.

    having said that I wish to discuss the following quote a little bit:

    Tell me brother Bill, what is meant by Jesus when speaking to the Syrophenician woman:

    And again:

    When you are finished teaching the unlearned among us what is meant by this scripture then perhaps you will find time to deal also with the woman who came to Jesus having an issue of blood; then with the centurion who requested Christ to speak the word, but forbade him to enter into his home for he himself was not worthy to have the presence of the Lord in his home; then expound for us the meaning of the "conversion" episode of Cornelius in Acts ch. 10; noting that Peter most assuredly did say the following:

    You can begin where ever you wish, but here I think is an important place to start, but don't overlook what the Spirit has previously recorded concerning Cornelius as many want to do:

    and also
    None of this is teaching how that God is no respecter of persons as it is taken and taught among people today, but what is said? What is uttered here by the Spirit? Is it only that God is not a respecter of persons? Or is it rather that God is not a respecter of persons concerning nationality?

    If you can answer these I would give a greater diligence to your claims.

    I see in each of these examples only those possessing belief coming to Christ.

    Deal with them as you will, in whatever order you desire, so that I may learn where that I am in error in my thinking.

    In short, show in these Scriptural examples how that faith brought about the 'regeneration' of any of these individuals; I believe these episodes are conclusive that regeneration brought their faith and their faith brought obedience to the drawing to Christ for the purpose of having their needs met, or as Bro. Glen says, for Spiritual feeding, resulting in Spiritual Growth.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
    [​IMG]
     
    #40 Frogman, Jul 11, 2003
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