Views on the Trinity

Originally posted by 4study:
Consider the following;

God is omnipresent.

Jesus is God.

Jesus is on the "right hand of the father".

How can Jesus be on the right hand of Himself?

If expressed in the concept of "person", you have two gods. If expressed in the concept of "office", you have one God.

Click to expand...

Sabellianism. circa 260AD False doctrine then, false now.

In Bible terms, the Son is God (Jn 1:1-2) AND is at the right hand of the throne. If we can't understand that, it is the height of arrogance to say that because we can't understand, therefore it can't be.


Mat 26:64 "Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.""

Mark 14:62 "Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.""

Mark 16:19 "So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God."


Luke 22:69 ""Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God.""


Acts 2:25 ""For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the LORD always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken."

Acts 2:33-34 ""Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand,"

Acts 5:31 ""Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

Acts 7:55-56 "But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!""

Rom 8:34 "Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us."


Eph 1:20 "which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,"

Col 3:1 "If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God."

Heb 1:3 "who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"

Heb 1:13 "But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"?"

Heb 8:1 "Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,"

Heb 10:12 "But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,"

Heb 12:2 "looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

1 Pet 3:22 "who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him."


Rev 5:1 "And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals."

Rev 5:7 "Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne."

Originally posted by 4study:
Trotter,

I recommend you look up the Greek word for "mystery" as used in the NT. It doesn't refer to something that is foggy or hard to grasp. A "mystery" is something that can be understood.

Click to expand...

Actually, a mystery is something that has been concealed and is being revealed. Some mysteries, such as the mystery of lawlessness, are at work, but are not yet revealed. Some are more or less revealed. The mystery of Godliness is "great," and Paul lists its facts without attempting an explanation.

Mark 4:11 "And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,"

Rom 16:24-27 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith; 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen."

1 Cor 2:7 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,"

1 Cor 15:51 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed;"

Eph 1:9 "having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,"

Eph 3:1-12 "For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him."

Eph 5:32 "This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

Eph 6:19 "and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,"

Col 1:26-27 "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Col 2:2 "that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,"

Col 4:3 "meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains,"

2 Th 2:7 "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."

1 Tim 3:9 "holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience."

1 Tim 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory."

Major B,

Sabellianism. circa 260AD False doctrine then, false now.

In Bible terms, the Son is God (Jn 1:1-2) AND is at the right hand of the throne. If we can't understand that, it is the height of arrogance to say that because we can't understand, therefore it can't be.

Click to expand...

Until now, I was not familiar with "Sabellianism". After reading about it, let me assure anyone reading my posts, I am not promoting Sabellianism, or anything like it.

I'm not sure what your post means but personally, I do grasp the concept of Jesus being the Son of God AND being on the right hand.

Major B,

Actually, a mystery is something that has been concealed and is being revealed. Some mysteries, such as the mystery of lawlessness, are at work, but are not yet revealed. Some are more or less revealed. The mystery of Godliness is "great," and Paul lists its facts without attempting an explanation.

Click to expand...

In the Greek Lexicons I have (Lidell & Scott, Thayer's) "mystery" (musterion) is something revealed "to the initiated".

I'm not sure what Trotter was implying by saying, "That's why Paul called it a mystery", but nevertheless, I do not believe God is three unqiue, individual persons. That's confusing. Every time I've heard someone try to explain God in this fashion, it's left me in a daze. It makes no sense. Not to mention that "three persons" is not used in the Bible to describe God.

Until now, I was not familiar with "Sabellianism". After reading about it, let me assure anyone reading my posts, I am not promoting Sabellianism, or anything like it.

Click to expand...

I'm confused. What you have said repeatedly is properly described as Sabellianism or, in modern terms, Oneness theology. What have I missed?

rsr,

I'm confused. What you have said repeatedly is properly described as Sabellianism or, in modern terms, Oneness theology. What have I missed?

Click to expand...

Preconcieved ideas. It's difficult to get beyond these in any dicusssion and much more, I'm sure, in an online forum.

You've introduced another term, "Oneness theology", which in my mind may have one meaning but perhaps an entirely different one to your's.

I believe in One God.

Perhaps monotheism is another term to use here. I regard "God in three persons" as tritheism, "three gods". Or described in the classic term as polytheism, "many gods".

Hello Brothers and Sisters,

Everybody's a theologian..

I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One in three persons. However, I'm only human. I could never even begin to completely understand God. Anyone who claims to completely understand God is not honest with theirself.

I don't remember the exact quote but Billy Graham once said that he had been a student of the Bible for years and that there were some things he could not understand. He said he may not understand the Trinity, but he believes. What I'm trying to say is that through faith comes understanding and acceptance. Well, that's just my two cents......

God Bless.....

Brooks

untangled,

If someone says they believe in one God in "three persons", they're stating something. What they're stating, I don't know.

Doesn't it seem troubling to make a statement about God but then be unable to describe what it means?

From the Athanasian Creed:

...

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

...

Brian T,

Very confusing and ambiguous as well as being subject to personal interpretations. Also sounds very political.

Originally posted by 4study:
Very confusing and ambiguous as well as being subject to personal interpretations. Also sounds very political.

Click to expand...

How so? I find it to be the exact opposite of confusing and ambiguous. The Creed was created to be precise, and contains 26 separate statements to avoid the ambiguity that can result from 2 or 3 statements. Are you sure you're not mistaking the difficulty of comprehending the incomprehensible, with the comprehending of the Creed's text?

BrianT,

Are you sure you're not mistaking the difficulty of comprehending the incomprehensible, with the comprehending of the Creed's text?

Click to expand...

No. I believe God is comprehensible.

This creed is allowing the option of either believing in one God or three gods. You decide. As for me, I believe in one God.

To follow up on an earlier post, "Oneness theology" is a doctrine adhered to by some groups (the United Pentecostals being perhaps the most prominent) that teaches that God assumed three different roles (or modes) in history, but is only one person. It is a throwback to the earlier modalistic heresies. Many passages are incompatible with this view, especially Matthew 3:16-17. Jesus is clearly not identical with the Father, not is He the same as the Holy Spirit. They are distinct Persons, not merely modes taken up by the same person.

DCK,

I am not familiar with the "Oneness theology" that you refer to but I do not believe God “assumed three different roles in history”.

Offices are not identical and can be distinguished.

In your comment you say “but is only one person” and then say “They are distinct Persons”. This is confusing. It’s like saying, “God is one person in three persons”.

Originally posted by 4study:
No. I believe God is comprehensible.

Click to expand...

To some extent, certainly. But we can only comprehend him within the limits of our finiteness. He is infinite, a finite being cannot fully comprehend the infinite.

This creed is allowing the option of either believing in one God or three gods. You decide.

Click to expand...

No, it is not. Point 3 says "one God". 4 says "Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance." 11. says "And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal." 12 says "As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible." 14 says "And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty." 16 says "And yet they are not three Gods, but one God." 18 says "And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord." 20 says "So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords."

The Creed is NOT allowing "the option of either believing in one God or three gods". If someone believes in three gods, they are in direct opposition to eight points of the Creed.

BrianT,

God’s revelation is comprehensible.

Like I said, this creed is left to personal interpretations. To me, the word “person” means individual and unique. So to say “God is three persons” is saying there are three gods. Certainly the creed isn’t going to say this but I’m not debating the creed. This is about what we believe.

My question is,
Why is the word “person” used to identify these three “distinctions” of God?

Originally posted by 4study:
Like I said, this creed is left to personal interpretations. To me, the word “person” means individual and unique. So to say “God is three persons” is saying there are three gods.

Click to expand...

But since the Creed explicitly denies three gods, and explicitly affirms one God, it obviously isn't using your definition of "person" and does not even allow your definition, thus it is not left to personal interpretations.

Certainly the creed isn’t going to say this but I’m not debating the creed. This is about what we believe.

Click to expand...

But I believe the Creed. As do millions of other Christians. The Creed expresses my belief. That's the whole point of having a Creed, it's a statement of what we believe.

My question is,
Why is the word “person” used to identify these three “distinctions” of God?

Click to expand...

Maybe for lack of a better word. Maybe because a better word doesn't exist. Yes, "persons" isn't the perfect word, but I don't like "offices" as much as "persons", for "offices" distinguishes betweeen 'roles' but does not really deal at all with personalities. In the Gospels, we see the Son praying to the Father. We see the Son not speaking of himself, but speaking what was given of the Father. We see him comparing his will to the Father's will. We see the Son at his baptism, with the Holy Spirit descending, and the Father speaking from Heaven. This is different than "offices", where the same "person" talks to himself in a different role, or the same "person" is in multiple places at the same time. I generally agree with the concept of "office" in sense of a role, but only because the distinction already exists in the "persons" (for lack of a better word).

Yes, the Trinity is hard to understand, but easy to accept, with a little faith.

BrianT,

I’m trying to figure out what you mean by “persons” and the best I can do is find a similar word; “personality”. Are you saying “three persons” means three separate, distinct personalities? If so, is it because “office” doesn’t seem to make any distinction at all? In my mind, the concept of “office” does make a distinction, although it does not go so far as to “separate” or dissect one person into two or three. If God is three separate, distinct personalities, why not worship all three in separate Sunday services? One to worship the Father, another to worship the Son, and finally another to worship the Holy Spirit. And why stop a three? Is “Priest”, “King”, or “Comforter” a separate personality of God too?

The Trinity is a foundational truth of Christianity. Without it, Jesus becomes a great teacher, and the holy Spirit becomes the warm fuzzies.

As to an earlier statement I made, I was not trying to use the word "mystery" as a cop out. The Trinity was not in full view in the Old Testament, but is reavealed in the New Testament. Although one cannot got to a specific verse to prove it (the main two are regarded as add-ins by many who study it), it is a doctrinal truth that spans the width of the Bible.

The Trinity does not teach "three gods", nor does it teach "three personalities". God is so far above what we are (Isaiah 55:8-9) that the very concept is beyond what we can fully understand. I do not find the idea of the Trinity beyond belief, however.

As far as truths that are beyond understanding, the Trinity is not alone. Salvation itself is more than any one person can fully grasp. I know that I am saved, and I understand the how, but the why, and the eternal ramifications of what was done for me is beyond me. I can explain it enough to get the basic meaning across, but when I stop and gaze at that which God has wrought (not only in my own existance, but in countless others), I stand amazed and humbled before the power and majesty of my loving Father.

BUT, without the Trinity, salvation cannot exist. If Jesus is not God, we have no propitiation, for no man could have taken the sacrifice of the cross and turned it into the salvation of the elect unless He was also God.

Jesus was not an avatar. He is God incarnate, God clothed in human flesh, but, while on this earth, He was tempted by the same things that we are. He lived the life that we could not, He kept the Law that we cannot, and He died a substitutionary death that we so desperately needed. If Jesus is not part of the Trinity of God, we are as yet still in our sins, and hav eno hope of redemption.

In Christ,
Trotter

Originally posted by 4study:
I’m trying to figure out what you mean by “persons” and the best I can do is find a similar word; “personality”. Are you saying “three persons” means three separate, distinct personalities? If so, is it because “office” doesn’t seem to make any distinction at all? In my mind, the concept of “office” does make a distinction, although it does not go so far as to “separate” or dissect one person into two or three. If God is three separate, distinct personalities, why not worship all three in separate Sunday services? One to worship the Father, another to worship the Son, and finally another to worship the Holy Spirit. And why stop a three? Is “Priest”, “King”, or “Comforter” a separate personality of God too?

Click to expand...

No, I don't think "personalities" is good either. It makes God sound schizophrenic. I think the Athanasian Creed is excellent and I have no need or desire to try to improve it.