-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Especially?
- Thread starter npetreley
- Start date
Y
Yelsew
Guest
This could have some connection with Revelation 21:9-27.
I don't readily see the connection Yelsew, could you elaborate?
Honestly, no ulterior motives involved. My mind just isn't working properly (which is why when I originally read this I hesitated to post until I gained an understanding of the scripture).
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Honestly, no ulterior motives involved. My mind just isn't working properly (which is why when I originally read this I hesitated to post until I gained an understanding of the scripture).
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Rev 21:22-27 I could not see any temple in the city since the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb were themselves the temple, and the city did not need the sun or the moon for light, since it was lit by the radiant glory of God, and the Lamb was a lighted torch for it. The nations will come to its light and the kings of the earth will bring it their treasures. Its gates will never be closed by day-and there will be no night there and the nations will come, bringing their treasure and their wealth. Nothing unclean may come into it: no one who does what is loathsome or false, but only those who are listed in the Lamb's book of life.
1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, (The nations, the unclean,) especially of those who believe (those who are listed in the Lamb's Book of life) .
1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, (The nations, the unclean,) especially of those who believe (those who are listed in the Lamb's Book of life) .
I think the phrase, "Christ is the savior for all men," means that Christ work of atonement was done with the desire to save all men.
The phrase, "especially for those who believe," indicates those to who the salvation is actually applied.
So Christ makes salvation possible for all, but its especially those who believe that actually experience the Christ as savior. The fact that Joe Heathen doesn't believe in Christ doesn't change the fact that Jesus was his savior. Jesus is everyone's savior, but only those who believe are saved.
This verse reminds me of another verse that is structured very much the same and uses the word "especially" as well:
Gal 6:10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
This verse is saying in a sense, be good to all people especially those who are good in return. So too, 1 Tim 4:10 is saying in the same sense, Christ is good to all people especially to those who believe.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Yes, those who believe are the special ones. But, not necessarily "the elect", but the "whosoever believer's"
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Explain!
Ken, it seem funny to me that when the words "all men" are used in regard to everyone being saved you accept them, but when its used in regard to God desire to see all men saved from wrath or to come to repentance you don't accept them.Originally posted by Ken H:
To avoid the charge of universal salvation, the Arminians are forced to argue that the Holy Spirit was redundant within five words. Talk about a forced interpretation.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Brother Bill, it seems funny to me how you continually deny the logical conclusions of your own theological beliefs.
But, as is clearly evident, Arminianism is hardly a coherent theological system. It simply grabs here and there as needed to attempt to keep man's will sovereign over God's will.
But, as is clearly evident, Arminianism is hardly a coherent theological system. It simply grabs here and there as needed to attempt to keep man's will sovereign over God's will.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Ya know Ken, that lie is getting pretty old. Why don't you give it a rest!
If Gal 6:10 is parallel in its meaning, then he's saying, "Be hypocrites. Desire to do good to all people, but when it comes down to acting on this advice, confine your good deeds to fellow believers."
Now there's an interesting twist on a Biblical concept. Love your enemy, especially those who will do you some good in return.
In a single post you've managed to demote Christ twice - from "is Savior" to "desires to be Savior" to "is good to people". I'm glad it was a relatively short post.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Yes, but you haven't hurt me!Originally posted by Ken H:
The truth hurts doesn't it, Yelsew.
Nick,
I should have known you wouldn't have been able to deal with me fairly when I attempted to anwer your post.
Do you know what the phrase "in a sence" means? It means not literally, but in the same way.
I was comparing the way in which the word "especially" is used in these two verses. A point you obviously and no doubt intentionally ignored so as to misrepresent my statements.
If you are so smart Nick, how do you deal with this passage?
It does refer to Christ as the savior of all men. If that along with 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9 and Matt 23:37 and others don't convince you that God does desire all men to be saved I don't guess anything will.
I should have known you wouldn't have been able to deal with me fairly when I attempted to anwer your post.
Do you know what the phrase "in a sence" means? It means not literally, but in the same way.
I was comparing the way in which the word "especially" is used in these two verses. A point you obviously and no doubt intentionally ignored so as to misrepresent my statements.
If you are so smart Nick, how do you deal with this passage?
It does refer to Christ as the savior of all men. If that along with 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9 and Matt 23:37 and others don't convince you that God does desire all men to be saved I don't guess anything will.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Brother Bill,
I agree with your posted dated March 16th. at 1:10 a.m. Your first two paragraphs houses the answer to the meaning of that Scripture. When you let the Word speak to you rather than try to force His Word to fit any theology then you come out of a study with blessed, new light.
Universalism is not taught here or any other place in Scripture. Free will, however, is the order of the day by telling us that those who believe will finally be saved. Thank God we are among that great and happy group called the redeemed.
I agree with your posted dated March 16th. at 1:10 a.m. Your first two paragraphs houses the answer to the meaning of that Scripture. When you let the Word speak to you rather than try to force His Word to fit any theology then you come out of a study with blessed, new light.
Universalism is not taught here or any other place in Scripture. Free will, however, is the order of the day by telling us that those who believe will finally be saved. Thank God we are among that great and happy group called the redeemed.
KenH
Well-Known Member
From John Gill's Commentary:
1 Timothy 4:10
Ver. 10. For therefore we both labour,.... Not in the word and doctrine, though they did; nor in the exercise of internal godliness, though there is a work in faith, and a labour in love; nor with their own hands, at their trades and business, to support themselves, and others; but by enduring hardships and afflictions, as stripes, imprisonment, weariness, pain, watchings, fastings, hunger, thirst, cold, and nakedness; see 2Co 11:23.
And suffer reproach; with patience and cheerfulness. The Alexandrian copy, and another manuscript, read, "we strive"; or contend even to an agony, combating with sin, Satan, and the world, with profane men, and with false teachers; and to all this they were animated by the promises made to godliness; and therefore they showed it by their practices, or rather by their sufferings, that they believed it to be a true and faithful saying; and which is further conferred by what follows:
because we trust in the living God; for the accomplishment of the said promises, who has power, and therefore can, and is faithful, and therefore will, make good what he has promised; and since it is life he has promised, faith is the more encouraged to trust in him, since he is the living God, in opposition to, and distinction from, lifeless idols; he has life in himself, essentially, originally, and independently, and is the author and giver of life, natural, spiritual, and eternal, unto others. Wherefore there is good reason to trust in him for the fulfilling of the promises of the present and future life, made unto godliness.
Who is the Saviour of all men; in a providential way, giving them being and breath, upholding them in their beings, preserving their lives, and indulging them with the blessings and mercies of life; for that he is the Saviour of all men, with a spiritual and everlasting salvation, is not true in fact.
Specially of those that believe; whom though he saves with an eternal salvation; yet not of this, but of a temporal salvation, are the words to be understood: or as there is a general providence, which attends all mankind, there is a special one which relates to the elect of God; these are regarded in Providence, and are particularly saved and preserved before conversion, in order to be called; and after conversion, after they are brought to believe in Christ, they are preserved from many enemies, and are delivered out of many afflictions and temptations; and are the peculiar care and darlings of providence, being to God as the apple of his eye: and there is a great deal of reason to believe this, for if he is the Saviour of all men, then much more of them who are of more worth, value, and esteem with him, than all the world beside; and if they are saved by him with the greater salvation, then much more with the less; and if he the common Saviour of all men, and especially of saints, whom he saves both ways, then there is great reason to trust in him for the fulfilment of the promises of life, temporal and eternal, made to godliness, and godly persons. This epithet of God seems to be taken out of Ps 17:7 where he is called Myowx eyvwm, "the Saviour of them that trust", or believe.
1 Timothy 4:10
Ver. 10. For therefore we both labour,.... Not in the word and doctrine, though they did; nor in the exercise of internal godliness, though there is a work in faith, and a labour in love; nor with their own hands, at their trades and business, to support themselves, and others; but by enduring hardships and afflictions, as stripes, imprisonment, weariness, pain, watchings, fastings, hunger, thirst, cold, and nakedness; see 2Co 11:23.
And suffer reproach; with patience and cheerfulness. The Alexandrian copy, and another manuscript, read, "we strive"; or contend even to an agony, combating with sin, Satan, and the world, with profane men, and with false teachers; and to all this they were animated by the promises made to godliness; and therefore they showed it by their practices, or rather by their sufferings, that they believed it to be a true and faithful saying; and which is further conferred by what follows:
because we trust in the living God; for the accomplishment of the said promises, who has power, and therefore can, and is faithful, and therefore will, make good what he has promised; and since it is life he has promised, faith is the more encouraged to trust in him, since he is the living God, in opposition to, and distinction from, lifeless idols; he has life in himself, essentially, originally, and independently, and is the author and giver of life, natural, spiritual, and eternal, unto others. Wherefore there is good reason to trust in him for the fulfilling of the promises of the present and future life, made unto godliness.
Who is the Saviour of all men; in a providential way, giving them being and breath, upholding them in their beings, preserving their lives, and indulging them with the blessings and mercies of life; for that he is the Saviour of all men, with a spiritual and everlasting salvation, is not true in fact.
Specially of those that believe; whom though he saves with an eternal salvation; yet not of this, but of a temporal salvation, are the words to be understood: or as there is a general providence, which attends all mankind, there is a special one which relates to the elect of God; these are regarded in Providence, and are particularly saved and preserved before conversion, in order to be called; and after conversion, after they are brought to believe in Christ, they are preserved from many enemies, and are delivered out of many afflictions and temptations; and are the peculiar care and darlings of providence, being to God as the apple of his eye: and there is a great deal of reason to believe this, for if he is the Saviour of all men, then much more of them who are of more worth, value, and esteem with him, than all the world beside; and if they are saved by him with the greater salvation, then much more with the less; and if he the common Saviour of all men, and especially of saints, whom he saves both ways, then there is great reason to trust in him for the fulfilment of the promises of life, temporal and eternal, made to godliness, and godly persons. This epithet of God seems to be taken out of Ps 17:7 where he is called Myowx eyvwm, "the Saviour of them that trust", or believe.
Daniel David
New Member
Which is why I said, "I think..."
I agree but this does seem to contradict the teaching of limited atonement, don't you think?
Israel was elect but not everyone in Israel believed. The Gentiles were also elected to receive the gospel (Col. 1:26) but not all gentiles believe. God can chose or elect to reveal the truth to you but you can refuse to believe as we seen demonstrated throughout the scripture. Being elect simply means that God has chosen to grant you entrance into His covenant. That entrance is through faith in Christ. So, yes all who believe have been elected by God to hear the truth, but not all who are elected to hear will necessarily believe. You must also remember that in the first century the term "elect" was often used in reference to Jews to set them apart because they were from the elect nation of Israel, so don't allow that to confuse the issue.