predestnation vs free will

Dear HomeBound,

The truth is that no one really knows what hell is. But ALL rebell willingly against God and exercise their free will when they do not believe in the Gospel! The consequence of this is the eternal judgment in Hell which is not a pleasant doctrine to hear. However, it is a major part of the Gospel therefore we must not ignore it.

You may be surprised but there are only a handful of 'so called Calvinists' who would deny "free will" alltogether. The big debate is how you define 'free will'!! I for one believe in 'free will'; check out the C/A threads for more detail.

By the way, when you say this:

...you have just claimed to be at least a 'one point Calvinist' believing in Limited Atonement! If Christ died only for those 'who would believe', than He did not die for every single person in this world, right?


Serving Him together
Felix

 

Dear Tim too,

Let's check this 'dress it up' accusation a little bit:

1. "we all deserve Hell" - a clear Biblical teaching
2. "God chose to save" - it is an act of sovereign mercy that God does this, since none of us deserve to be saved.
3. "the elect" - wouldn't you agree that only the elect will be saved?

You decide how much of a 'dressing it up' this is. To mee it is the Gospel in a nutshell.

What would be your view on the fate of those who have never in their life heard anything about God's salvation plan before or after the Cross? How was (or wasn't) the 'offer of salvation' presented to them?


Felix

 

Tim too, you display your ignorance on this issue.

First, arminians (prescient view) believe that God looked into the future to see who would believe.

The problem doesn't go away for you. You see, your view of God KNEW people would reject him of their own free will and he created them anyway.

Now, unless you want to say that the future is open (and thus admit to open theism), you have the exact same "problem". You have a God that created people that would go to hell.

If you are an open theist, I would not talk to you about calvinism, I would talk to you about Jesus and your need to be saved. No open theist is saved.

 

So what are you saved from? Why did Jesus die? Why did rise from the grave? That's why they must hear the word of God, so they can know.

This is a choice you make, not God. Jesus gave you the way out, but it is up to you to believe it. BTW, John 3:16 says the God gave his son for the WORLD.

 

This is a non-sequitur. That may be the logical conclusion to you, personally, but that only speaks of your (and my) limited knowledge. It does not necessarily follow that if God elects some and leaves others to destruction that He did so "just because He wants to".

On the other hand, even if He did so "just because He wants to", does He not have that right? Who are you (the editorial you, not *you*) to say whether or not God is just for designing creation that way? Do you have the right to impose your personal perception of justice and mercy on God?

 

Perhaps this is just the "writer/editor" in me, but IMO you should give proper attribution to quotes. This section was a quote from Martin Luther.

 

True!! I should have given credit to him! I have read his work so many times that sometimes I feel his words are direct answers to some of the questions in this thread. No excuses though! That whole section is taken from 'The Bondage of the Will' which I think if some people here would read, it would answer a lot of questions.

Thank you and I apologize
Felix

 

Dear Calvinistic brothers & sisters,

I have used reason and logic to argue where I didn't need to. For this I am called ignorant and have my salvation questioned.

All I need to do is to point to the many verses of Scripture that contradict your belief that some of us Christ died for and some of us He did not.

You take election and ignore or reinterpret everything that contradicts it in the Bible to preserve your doctrine.

How do you explain this verse?

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." John 12:32 NIV


Please don't retort with another verse to support your view of election.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Tim, either study some more or stop with the nonsensical statements. For example:

1. Who Christ died for doesn't have a thing to do with election. Many people believe in election but also believe the atonement is intended for every single person.

2. Give me one verse that isn't wrenched from its context and we will discuss that.

3. The same way John wrote it and Christ intended it:

God will draw all men to himself. He will draw Jews, Gentiles, slaves, free, men, female, americans, french, short, tall, fat, skinny, bald, hairy, etc.

Now, when Paul said he was all things to all people, did that mean he acted a certain way for you in particular or for the various kinds of people? The answer is obvious.

4. That would confuse the issue wouldn't it?

As to your prooftext... NEXT!

 

Hey guys,

Ok I'm new here... so first off, let me just say "hello!" to everyone...

Let me start with these 2 verses which were quoted earlier...

Romans 8:29-30
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

I'm a father of 2 children. And after watching my kids grow up, often times I can say with certainty what choices they would make when faced with a decision. Sometimes I'm wrong, many times I'm right. When I'm right, sometimes I turn to my wife and say "see I told you so"... did I influence their decision? No I didn't. Did my telling my wife force their decision? No it didn't. Yet, I had told my wife so... even before the decision was made.

God is our heavenly father. And he knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows how we will choose when faced with various decisions... does he choose for us? No.

I believe God's desire is that all men will come to believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as their Lord and savior. Otherwise, He would be an unfair and unjust God. Yet, God knows us. He knows which ones of us when presented with the opportunity to accept christ as our Lord will choose to do so. And he also knows which ones of us will reject christ till our dying day. Does he choose us for us? No. He simply understands us.

Lets look at the verse 29 again... "For those God foreknew he also predestined" I'm hoping you see what I'm driving at. God did not predetermine who would accept christ and who would not. Rather, he foreknew who would accept and who would not. and then "those God foreknew he also predestined".

My 2 cents,

Allen

 

Please bear with my ignorance. I obviously don't have the vast theological knowledge you do.

How can you say that Christ died for everybody yet God only elects/enables some to receive it? Or are you even saying that? I am ignorant of your views. Please would you tell me just what you believe election means.

Am I wrong in sensing a Calvinistic spin on this? Are you suggesting that Christ died for every man or some men from everywhere?

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

I believe that verse means exactly what it says, that Christ will draw ALL men to himself. Many he will draw to Himself unto salvation, those whom He loved with an everlasting love, who just like the others, did not for one minute deserve salvation, yet God in His sovereign mercy loved (Titus 3:5) and those whom He bypassed when they, like Esau, have not yet done evil (Romans 9:11), he will draw to Himself in judgment before the Great White Throne at the last day of this fallen universe.

Some of my brethren believe that this "all men" pertain only to those who are the objects of God's sovereign mercy, since He, being God, draws men to Christ for salvation (John 6:44), which is also true if one considers the Jews who are God's earthly people but are also spiritual representations of God's chosen people. The Jews are in every nation, but not all nations are Jews. Likewise, God's elect, God's spiritual Israel, the redeemed of Revelation 4:9, were redeemed out of every kindred, and tongues, and people, and nation, but not every man or just any man is God's redeemed.

By the way, how do you expect people to discuss here. Without scripture or verse ?

 

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

 

There are at least two problems with your conclusion. First, you are incorrectly interpreting "For those God foreknew" to mean something more like "For those God foreknew would trust Him".

The word translated "foreknew" does not imply foreknowledge of something ABOUT that person or what that person might do. The word means intimate knowledge, as might be exemplified in a marriage relationship.

An example of the opposite of this "intimate knowledge" would be "depart from me, workers of iniquity, I never knew you." Surely one would not interpret this to mean, "I never knew in advance what you would do."

The second, more obvious problem, is that the verse says "those God foreknew, he predestined... And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

There is an exclusivity about this progression:

foreknew (some) -> predestined (those He foreknew) -> called (those He predestined) -> justified (those He called) -> glorified (those He justified)

The "free will" advocates need to rearrange the order of this in order for it to fit their view and removed the exclusivity (election) from the verse. It would have to be:

called (everyone) -> foreknew (some would respond) -> predestined (to save those who would respond) -> justified (those who responded) -> glorified (those he justified)

But that's not what the Bible says.

 

Ok, I'm no expert in greek, hebrew, aramaic etc... So I have to read the text as it is... so its times like these when I'm glad to have someone help expound on a word.

In this case though, I still don't see any problems... You see your definition of "foreknew" fits perfectly with what I was trying to explain... an "intimate knowledge".

Its this same intimate knowledge of us... and what makes us tick that allows God to know and understand us completely.

As for the need to reorder the stuff... this is how I see it...

Jesus Died that ALL men might be saved -> He foreknew those who would be(some) -> predestined (those He foreknew) -> called (those He predestined) -> justified (those He called) -> glorified (those He justified)

 

You're still implying that the word means God foreknew EVERYONE and knew how EVERYONE ticks, but chose to predestine only SOME of those He foreknew based on some as-yet undefined criteria.

There are many problems with that interpretation, not the least of which is the one I raised earlier:

First, everything in the progression refers back to the first "whom". "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined ... Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called ... etc." The word "whom" along with the progression tells you that He's talking about specific subset or only SOME of ALL people. This subset is "those whom He foreknew" as opposed to "those whom He did not foreknow".

Again, this is even more clear if you look at the Greek. The word for "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is proginosko and the word translated "knew" in Matt 7:23 is ginosko. So you obviously have two groups of people -- those He knew intimately (even before they were ever born), and those He never knew intimately. This is a quite different situation than what you're suggesting, which is that He knew ALL their hearts and what made them tick, and then predestined only some of those.

Now why does God foreknow only some? I don't know. The text does not answer that question.

I find it interesting that even your interpretation assumes God does not predestine or call everyone.

 

This predestination makes no sense, at least to me. If we are predestinated, why is there church, why is there preaching, why is there a Bible, that's enough why's for now, care to answer them anyone?

 

Verses that say "freewill" in the King James Bible showing you that there is such a thing.
Leviticus 22:18, 21, 23, 23:38, Numbers 15:3, 29:39, Deut. 12:6, 17, 16:10, 23:23, 2 Chron 31:14, Ezra 1:4, 3:5, 7:13, 7:16, 8:28, Ps. 119:108.

 

That is a gross mischaracterization of the practical implications of the Doctrine of Predestination.

Because of Predestination we have reason to be out there evangelizing the Lost. Predestination teaches that our Gospel witness will be effective because it is the means by which God calls them that are His. Results are guaranteed because it is all based upon God working and not our presentation skills.

 

Homebound, God not only determines the end, but he also determines the means to get there.

We partake in church because believers gather together to worship Christ.

We preach to edify the saints and convert the lost.

There is a Bible because God revealed himself through his word.

Come on, this is so simple people. Consistent calvinists do not have a god that starts things and then isn't actively involved. He is working all things together for good to those who love him.