predestnation vs free will

Homebound, God not only determines the end, but he also determines the means to get there.

We partake in church because believers gather together to worship Christ.

We preach to edify the saints and convert the lost.

There is a Bible because God revealed himself through his word.

Come on, this is so simple people. Consistent calvinists do not have a god that starts things and then isn't actively involved. He is working all things together for good to those who love him. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, this is why I go to church, but if predestination is so right, then it would not even matter, because we have no choice.

 

Not true, predestination does not mean that God makes every choice for every person.

God has chosen to save people by the proclamation of the Gospel.

How will people be saved? God will make sure to get someone to proclaim the message to them.

 

I agree that God uses us to spread the Gospel, but he does not direct us to do anything. He puts it in front of us and we choose whether to do God's will or ours.

 

Homebound, besides not being able to support your view with Scripture, you are only presenting a partial truth. How do you deal with this text?

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

There is no way around that text. It means exactly what you see.

God has told people what they need to do. However, all fall short. No one seeks God, no not one. If Christ does not reach out to man, man would never be saved.

Read also Philippians 1:27-29. The ability to believe is a gift from God.

 

Again I agree, we do fall short, all of us. There's a song that comes to mind, "He Came To Me." As far as the verse in Proverbs, God will not direct us in the sense of a boy with a remote that controls his toy. God directs those that are saved, He directs/sets up the path in our lives, but we choose whether to take God's path or our own.

 

Npetreley,

Sorry I've been pretty busy and haven't checked in for a while... I guess we could talk about this till the cow come home and we still would not agree... However I'm curious about something...

Is it your belief that God doesn't know how everyman ticks? (intimate knowledge)... but only those he predestined?

 

No, I believe God knows the heart of every man. Like I said, the "knowledge" we're talking about in the verse "those He foreknew" refers to a type of intimacy, not intellectual knowledge about someone, their motives and what they will or will not do. God has the latter type of knowledge about everyone.

It might help to think of "those He foreknew" as something more like "those to whom He was betrothed" as opposed to "those he had no intention of befriending". I know the word doesn't mean that, but it might help you understand why there's a difference.

 

Homebound:

"I agree that God uses us to spread the Gospel, but he does not direct us to do anything. He puts it in front of us and we choose whether to do God's will or ours. "
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This is Pelagianism. Man can save himself.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44

 

HOMEBOUND,
We "choose" to believe because God "chose" us:

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

In Christ,
Bobby

 

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- John 1:12 NIV

You Calvinists can surely point to those verses that show the Sovereignty of God but you choose (or are predestined ) to ignore all other. What about the ALLs in the Bible? Because they don't fit you theological box you reinterpret or ignore them.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Tim Too,

Every Calvinist believes that "all who recieve him" will have eternal life, but the point is only those given to Jesus by the Father(Jn. 6:37)"will recieve him" (come to Him). So the verse you quoted has no bearing on the discussion. As for your second assertion, show me a verse that uses the word "all" and we will discuss it.

brother in Christ,
Bobby

 

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. Romans 5:18 NIV

How about this all brother Bobby?

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Well, now, allow me to interject. But, Tim, are you saying that since Christ died for all men, then all men are now made alive in Him ? That all men are now made righteous without exception, and all are now going to heaven to be with God ?
That being the case, shall we now say that all men are now our brethren, including Muslims, Mormons, Seventh day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Atheists, Wiccans, Pagans, Headhunters, Cannibals, Black and White Witches, the entire lot of fallen humanity ?
If your answer is yes, then are you saying that all who died before Christ, including Isaiah, Moses, Joshua, Noah, mankind during Noah's time, Abel, Cain and his seed, have not been made alive because they were born AFTER Christ since men are made alive only as a result of the act of obedience of one man, according to the scripture you cite to justify your belief that Christ died for all men ?
Or are all men who were born before Christ, all men who were born after Christ and all who are still to be born are already justified and alive ?

 

pinoybaptist,

It is interesting how you have taken the verse I posted and "interjected" a hyper exaggeration of my position. Here are the two verses I recently posted.

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. Romans 5:18 NIV

Christ died for every man, not just men from everywhere.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- John 1:12 NIV

All, who receive Him, become children of God.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Tim too:

I was working on only one of the two verses you cited. Please examine my quote. Based on that one verse I quoted there are no hyper exagerrations I have done. You are the one who think I have hyper exagerrated because your opinion of those who submit to the doctrine of Grace is that we twist Scriptures to fit our interpretation, and you who deny the sovereign electing grace of God are the ones whom we are trying to deceive.

I don't think we have any argument with regards the first part of Romans 5:18 as we both believe (I am supposing you do) that all men without exception, are dead in trespasses and sin, as a result of Adam's transgression.

Our disagreement begins in the second part of Romans 5:18. I ask : Are all men, without exception, now stand justified because of Christ's obedience ? You seem to think so.

And yet, you don't seem to think so, based on your use of John 1:12. Here, by using this scripture, you are saying that the all of the second part of Romans 5:18 is in fact not "all" as without exception, the exception being "those who receive him." Which is which ?

We, who seem to be accused of slandering God in that we believe God chose a definite number of individuals among the fallen race of Adam, unto salvation, believe that there are certain uses of "all" where the word is limited to the elect, those whose names were written in the book of life.

Now, let us take a look at John 1:12. As I pointed out, this "all who received him", limits the word to only those who will receive him, and my question is: will they receive them out of an inherent goodness in their part ? Will they turn to God apart from the Holy Spirit working in them ? If your answer is yes, then what about scriptures that say all men, without exception, are dead in sin and tresspasses, that there are none, no not one, that seeketh God, that there are none righteous.

If your answer is no, then my question is, if God desires all men, without exception according to your side, to be saved, then why doesn't the Holy Spirit prod every man to salvation and to repentance toward God ?

I believe you will find your answer in the next verse of John 1:12, which is verse 13, and that verse says of those who do receive him that they are those - "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

In other words, those who receive him do so because they have been born from above. Not about to be born again, not will be born again, but were born because God was the cause of their regeneration. And if it was God's will that these be born again, therefore, it was not His will that the others be born again, which is to say exactly what He said in Romans 9:13, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated."

So, did Christ's obedience cause the justification of all men without exception ? Or will man be justified because they will believe in Christ ? And will they believe on their own ? Or will they believe because God gave them life first ?

 

Pinoybaptist,

Thanks for saving me the type. This verse is commonly cited by Universalist's (Belief that everybody is going to be saved) because if you take "All" to mean "all people without exception" it results in absurduties, that is unless your a universalist. This verse is speaking of the respective heads (the first Adam and the second Adam). All in the first Adam recieve death. All in the second Adam recive justification.


Tim Too, Is there another verse that you use to teach your belief

In Christ,
Bobby

 

I think my position is pretty clear. Christ died for all men. That, of course, doesn't mean that all men accept that His Sacrifice. Those who receive Him become sons of God. You take these verses and points and put an unnecessarily spin on them to make me sound like a universalist. I am not.

I see both the Sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man in Scripture and in tension. One doesn't negate the other. You see ONLY the Sovereignty.

I am not sure that you can prove Biblically that the Holy Spirit doesn't draw all men.

"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." John 12:32 NIV

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

There are enough verses to show that God offers salvation to ALL in the Bible to cause one to question Calvin's interpretation of election.

Here is another one.

For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Romans 11:32 NIV

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. Romans 5:18 NIV

So respectively speaking, were some in the first Adam sinners and some not as in the second Adam some are elected to salvation and some not???

I see what you mean about absurdities. You will, no doubt say that all men are sinners. But only some are offered salvation.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Tim Too,

First of all you don't seem to understand what I am trying to tell you that your interpretation leads to.I know that you don't believe in universalism, but that would be Pauls conclusion if your interpretation is correct:

"For as by one man's disobedience all (w/o exception) were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience all men (w/o exception) will be made righteous." (Rom. 5:19)

Now unless your a universalist, and I don't believe you are, the "all" cannot be talking about the same people. The consequences of Adams sin flows down into all His descendents without exception. There is no "potential" here.

The other is talking about Christ's descendents, all of them recieve justification. Look at this verse found in 1 Cor. 15:22-23:

For as in Adam all die (all his descendents), even so in Christ (those who are Christ's descendents) all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

Where does John 6:37 fit in your "theological box"?

In Christ,
Bobby