Arminians: It's a dirty Job, but somebdy had to be him?

I think it is also significant that God did not fear the loss of the faith of Job. Is this because it is a faith founded from the will of man?

Bro. Dallas

 

IMO, that is one of the best observations made so far. Thanks. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks, it just seemed to follow that from the Armenian position God is on a throne, but it is like a Constitutional Monarchy and one which man must ratify before God possesses any real authority, if not God is a raging tyrant, unfeeling, uncaring, uncapable of loving because of the justice thing, sometimes I wonder why we have such a hard time convincing of the manifested evil of man, then I remember if this is accepted the Righteousness and Holiness of God are all that is left and certainly the framework God has created adheres to the U.S. Supreme Court and Constitution, not to mention the United Nations bill of human rights. After all, justice (according to man) demands that all men are free to choose and thus all men are equal, in their ability, because if not this would prove God is a driving force behind the 'evil kingdoms' of the world secretly supporting jihad and terroristic activities.

Sorry for the rambling. After the apparent developments in Iraq I just wonder how people can imagine that all men adhere to the same principles of human worth as our great nation does.

Forgive me for climbing upon the soap box, I'm not a politician and not much of an Idealist.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Originally posted by Npetreley:

I agree fully with you concerning the usefulness of liberal theology. I had never considered the analogy to Santa Clause, perhaps this is why Christmas is so popular, it is revealing.

Bro. Dallas

 

It's quite evident that the reason God raised up nations against Israel is because the Jews chose to turn their backs on God. Why should this be a problem for Arminians?

 

IMO, that is one of the best observations made so far. Thanks. </font>[/QUOTE]"Best observation" ????

God doesn't fear anything, much less the loss of a man's faith. God knows Job's faith will stand the TEST, but that doesn't negate the necessity for it to be tested.

What seems contradictory is for God to test himself.

If God is completely responsible for Job's intergity and faithfulness then he is allowing Satan to test His work in Job as if it needed testing. That makes little sense.

 

To me it makes no sense that the devil would think he could test the faith of the saints even were that faith founded upon man, what saith scripture?

'Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world'

Bro. Dallas

 

Testing was God's suggestion, not Satan's.

And I agree that God is greater than Satan, so what's your point?

 

I gave the Sovereign Lord a bit more credit for this testing than you, but either way is ok. Look again at the text:

7 "Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan.And Satan answered the LORD, "I have been going back and forth across the earth, watching everything that's going on." 8 Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth – a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil." 9 Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, Job fears God, but not without good reason! 10 You have always protected him and his home and his property from harm. You have made him prosperous in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 12 "All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.

The Lord points Job out knowing full well what Satan's job is in this world. What do you think God was suggesting when He points out Job to the deciever and tormentor of people? Do you think God was just bragging on Job?

Satan merely says that he only serves you because you bless Him, if that changed so would his faithfulness. God told him he could test him by doing anything except kill him.

My question still stands. Why would God want to test himself? If it's God's intergrity and faithfulness in Job, why would it need to be tested? Why would Satan bother? Surely as a divine messenger of the Lord he would know the doctrines of Calvinism and know that Job's faithfulness would be unchangable if it was God who work in Job to be faithful. Why bother?

 

Npetreley;
What upsets you so much that we worships a God of Love. Calvinist have a doctrine that makes God out to be a sadist. Having good pleasure in the destruction of Billions. It's sick, sick, sick,.

God is not willing that any should perish
Romanbear

 

Brother Bill,

I see only a problem you have with accepting the Sovereignty of God. I don't believe your problem is with the TULIP, but with the Sovereign working of God.

I think you believe Total Depravity, you just won't admit it, that you believe Unconditional Election, because you agree the prophets, apostles and select others were obviously unconditionally elect, thereby implying the Total Depravity of this group, because they did not possess the 'free-will' of other men and groups that made the Unconditional election of the apostles, prophets and others necessary. I believe you do believe limited atonement, because this atonement is only valid for those who are chosen to be a part of the prophets, apostles, etc. I believe you do believe Irresistable Grace, as is evidenced above, for this would be necessary for God to have chosen the group he did, while all others are 'free' to choose. Finally, I believe you do believe the Perseverance of the Saints such that the prophets and apostles and etc. would certainly enjoy this in order that the purpose of God in calling them would stand.

This is what I believe about what you believe. And you have called me an elitist. If I were Yelsew, here is where I would insert: the pot calling the kettle black; or I'd agree with you because your system would at least offer consolation in my system of 'free-willism'...if I could only get you to see the image of God that man is in... we could thus walk along in agreement, though essentially there is no agreement, because you have devised the very elitist view of the alledged elite Calvinistic view of God's Sovereignty.
If not for the eternal peace of the Sovereignty of God, I would get dizzy.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

If the trial of Job are being used here to suggest then that God leaves people trapped on a path to Hell, those two things are very different. Nobody ever said that God doesn't afflict people on earth, but that is not the same as creating them in a role (as in a script) where they can do nothing but reject him and perish, and then roasting them in Hell supposedly for the same reason as testing Job. something positive came out of Job's testing. It was in the end good news, for him and for all of us reading of him. Hell is not positive. Unless you are one of those who look forward to seeing the horror you were "saved from", which you say will make you worship God more. (But then hey, you haven't persevered to the end yet, so don't be quick to look forward to that! Amos 5:18-20)

Is that supposed to make us "better" or evel less "depraved" than they? (There are many conservatives, including Christians who seem to think this).
But just think, it's our principles of "human worth" that make people so opposed to unconditional reprobation/preterition! (while Islamic theology has often been compared to Calvinism!)

 

npetreley,

I believe when our faith becomes sight we will be in great awe and wonder at the Being of Jesus Christ on the throne. His holiness and other attributes will make us also, as Job, to want to bow down down in humility due to the awesomeness of this Triune, Being of God. We like Isaiah of old will cry, Holy, Holy, Holy!!'

 

This is a beautiful thought Brother Ray, but what prevents the Arminian from responding in this way even as Job and Isaiah did? This is the response I feel in my soul when I give thought to the Sovereign Grace of God.

Bro. Dallas

 

To All...about Job,

John Piper has a great little book about Job. It is entitled, The Misery of Job and The Mercy of God . This book is all prose that Piper wrote and it parallels Job.

The last chapter reveals, I strongly believe, the purpose of Job's testing. It is titled: "Unkindly Has He Kindly Shown Me. . .God."

Job's testing was not because of anything Job did or did not do. It was not to prove Job's faith (yes, which is God-given) to God or Satan. The purpose of the testing was to show Job the magnificence of God.

Job asks, "Why God?" Notice that God NEVER gives Job an answer. God gives Job something vastly superior--Himself.

This account shows that God is the supreme treasure in all the universe.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

My impression is that many of you here beleive that love is the embodiment of God and that love is basically the God's greatest attribute.

God is love, I am not arguing that he isn't.
But also remember that God is HOLY HOLY HOLY.
The angels in the book Revelation do not sing, "God is love, love love", they sing "Holy, holy, holy".

So, if you know anything about the languages, you will know that in hebrew, when something is repeated it is for emphasis.
God is Love
But God is Holy, Holy, Holy.
God is a merciful God, but scripture says He has mercy on whom he pleases.
God is a holy and soveriegn God and he has a perfect right to send all of us to hell and we are deserving of it. And what arminians fail to understand is that man was created to glorify and please God and is is not yours to say that God wouldn't be loving if he sends people to hell.

 

Your question fell flat on its face. You can't admit it because it is your only "out". When you can deal with what the Bible actually says, then we'll have something to discuss. </font>[/QUOTE]MUMBO JUMBO