What is the Trinity?

I agree with this but i'm going to try to add something to try to make it more clear.

God the Father: Authority,The Almighty
God the Son: Savior, Redeemer, God Manifested in the Flesh
God the Spirit: The Comforter, Convictor, Guide

GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

christfollower55,

What you provided are listings of their functions to which hundreds of others could be attached, and your remarks showed me that I hadn't explained myself very well. I probably should have made clear that the models I provided attempt to show relationships, unity, and distinctivenesses all in one swoop rather than being exhaustive of the explainations of the persons or the unity of God.

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

I trust you realize this is a very late scribal addition to the TR. Using it to prove doctrine runs afoul of the rule against adding to the Scriptures.

Haruo

 

Actually you are incorrect. It is not a late addition and it is sufficient for doctrine. Your problem is you have been influenced by the modern perversions and higher criticism.

 

For what it's worth, I believe the Father and Son are one. The Holy Spirit as an "individual person" is something I do not believe is biblical. The Holy Spirit as the power of God, as God's spirit, yes; but not as an individual third person.

Here are a few of my reasons ---

1. John 10:30 - Jesus said, "I and my Father are one."

Read Jesus' lenghty prayer which He prayed to His Holy Father in Heaven (John 17).
Repeatedly, Jesus says, "Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given me, that they may be one, as we are."(verse 11,21). "That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us:...."

2. John 1:1-14 seems to say that the Word(Jesus) and God(Father) were the only beings who existed in the beginning.

3. Paul's letters all have the same introduction, which goes something like this: "Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ."

In all fourteen letters, Paul's salutations never once mention the Holy Spirit. You would think if the Holy Spirit was a real person, Paul would have mentioned "him". Paul wrote his letters over many decades and never once changed the wording of his salutation in all that time.

4. There is duality in nature: male/female, day/night, good/bad, etc. Even our own bodies are two halves joined together.

5. Speaking about marriage; a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and the two shall be one....(Matt. 19: 4-5).

 

This whole idea, of how many persons make up God, opens up a whole new concept. For example ---

How many people are in your family, the SMITHS? Perhaps a husband and wife and three children; five people = one family, all SMITHS.

A preacher once told me GOD is a family and, therefore, a family name. So far, it is only made up of the Father and Son. At the resurrection, this one family of God will have millions of brothers and sisters who will be born into this family, just like you were born into your family. And your family's name became your name: you became a SMITH (know where I'm going with this?)

Is it possible God is reproducing Himself, in us?
In Genesis, the animals reproduced after their kind: the fish, the cattle, the creeping things all reproduced after their kind.

God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness(our kind)-- the GOD kind --Gen. 1:26.

Is God showing us how "all this works" by putting human beings into families? Is God trying to show us something here? Is our utltimate destiny to be born into the GOD family, and to take on the family name?

Does Satan, the Deceiver, what us to believe that God is a closed, finite Trinity? Paul says, "Know you not that we shall judge angels?" (1Cor. 6:3). It's in Satan's interest "to trip us up"!

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1Jn. 3:2).

David said, "As for me, I will behold your face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake with your likeness" (Ps. 17:15).

"For those whom he(God) foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family" (Rom. 8:29 - New Revised Standard Version).

 

you may be part of the family of God but you will never be part of the trinity. It is limited to the Father, Son,and Holy Spirit. you will never be God or part of God, which your post very easily could be misinterpreted as saying. We are not on the level of Godhood.
chet

 

If I may offer a poor illustration of the Trinity in human terms - the egg.

Three parts - shell, yoke, and white - yet one egg. Each has its own function - none can function without the other two.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
One God - manifested in three different but equal personages - yet it takes all three to comprise the One God we worship and love.

Can I adequately explain it - NO -- do I believe it - YES!

Neither can I adequately explain God's sovereignty and man's free will - yet the Bible teaches both - John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Romans 9:14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (God's sovereignty in election)
Romans 9:30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Man's faith necessary)

God's sovereignty and man's faith in the passage.

One question I have for all of you - have you ever thought along these lines before - Jesus said "I and my Father are One." When Christ was on the cross suffering and paying for our sin -- did the Father feel the pain of the Son?

 

The Holy Spirit can not be a true third person because of the following --

"...she(Mary) was found with child of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:18).

"...for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:20).

Luke 1:35 - "Then said Mary unto the angel, 'How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?' And the angel answered and said unto her, 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon you and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you:...' ".

If the Holy Spirit were a person, he would be the father of Jesus, which he is not.

The Holy Spirit is not the father of Jesus; it might be God's power or agent,etc., for getting God's work done, but not a person.

Doesn't the Bible say we all have a "spirit" within us? Maybe God's Spirit is considered holy because He is Holy.

[ April 17, 2003, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: wopik ]

 

if you don't believe the Holy Spirit is a "true Third Person" then that would classify you under the category of "heretic"
chet

 

Pastor Chet --

I appreciate your honest opinion. It would even be more helpful to discuss some of the legitimate questions raised on this subject. Nobody has all the answers, but a dialog among many may help.

[ April 18, 2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: wopik ]

 

wopik,

Responses by the Holy Spirit indicate His personhood, which is seen in the use of personal pronouns referring to Him (cf. John 14:17; 16:13; etc.). His identity as Comforter, or Helper (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7), indicates that He is like Christ, who is a person. The Holy Spirit has intellect (1 Cor. 2:11), feelings (Rom. 8:27; 15:30), and will (1 Cor. 12:11). He works (1 Cor. 12:11), searches (1 Cor. 2:10), speaks (Acts 13:2), testifies (John 15:26), teaches (John 14:26), convicts (John 16:8-11), regenerates (John 3:5), intercedes (Acts 8:26), guides (John 16:13), glorifies Christ (John 16:14), and directs service to God (Acts 16:6-7).

The Holy Spirit is a person, who can be grieved:

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Eph 4:30)

The personhood of the Holy Spirit is seen in the fact that He can be treated as a person. He can be tested (Acts 5:9), lied to (Acts 5:3), resisted (Acts 7:51), insulted (Heb. 10:29), and blasphemed (Matt. 12:31-32).

 

First, God Himself is Spirit.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Second, The Holy Spirit, the third person of the triune Godhead was sent by Christ, and has a specific ministry in this world today.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

He (the person of the Holy Spirit) reproves or convicts those in this world of sin, because of their unbelief. That is just one of his ministries.

Do we all have a spirit??

Eph.2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

Paul, writing to the believers at Ephesus, says that you were once dead, but are now alive. What does the verse mean? Their spirit was dead. When the Holy Spirit convicted them of sin, and they trusted Christ as their Saviour, then Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit came and took up residence in the lives of those individuals. The saved have a spirit that is alive unto God. The unsaved have a spirit that is dead or inoperable. It can only be made alive by trusting Christ. You were once dead in trespasses and sins. You are now alive because of Christ.

Rom.8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
DHK

 

Jesus "charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, 'Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles' " (Matt. 12:17-18)

Jesus was quoting Isaiah 61:1 - "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek;...:' ".

God is sharing His Spirit, a part of Himself, with mankind.

Isaiah 63:8-11 - "For he said, 'Surely they are my people, children that will not lie': so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence save them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them: and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying, 'Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?' ".


Gen. 1:2 - "The Spirit of God" moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen. 41:38 - ...a man in whom "the Spirit of God" is?

Ex. 35:31 - ...has filled him with "the Spirit of God."

1Sam. 10:10 - "the Spirit of God" came upon him...


1Sam. 16:13-14 - "the Spirit of the Lord" came
upon David...

Acts 2:17,18 / Joel 2:28 / Ez. 36:27 - I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh...

1Cor. 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized....

2Cor. 3:3 - ...you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ...not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God....

2Cor. 3:17 - Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

ROM 8:16,17 - The Spirit bears witness with OUR SPIRIT, that we are the children of God...and joint heirs with Christ;

============

A spirit in man?

1. Zech. 12:1 -
2. Eccl. 3:21
3. 2kings 2:15 - the spirit of Elijah does rest on...
4. 1Chron. 5:26 - and the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria and the spirit of Tilgath-pineser king o Assyria...

5. Ezra 1:1 - the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia....

============

Rom.8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
DHK

God's Spirit, in us, makes us His.

[ April 22, 2003, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: wopik ]

 

Abiyah,

I was just trying to explain this to my 5 year old who was very curious about the trinity and then I re-explained it to my wife.

Charles Ryrie has a good diagram that try to explain the trinity in his book "Basic Theology".

He explains it something like this and I agree The Godhead is made of three eternally distinct persons.

God the father is God, not the Son, not the Holy Spirit

God the Son is God, not the Father, not the Holy Spirit

God the Holy Spirit is God, not the Son, not the Father.

There are some false cults in the past and still today that say something like this

God the father=God the Son=God the Spirit

But in the Godhead there is a subject object relationship - God the father sent God the Son who sent God the Holy Spirit.

I hope this does not confuse anyone but brings clearity to the situation.

While I don't agree with everything Hank Hanagraff says - I do agree with his statement that almost all heresies begin with a misconception of the nature of God.

IFBReformer

 

I hope all of us have been some help to Abiyah.

"He that searches the hearts is the same One that makes intercession for us—Christ. He knows “the mind of the spirit” within us.

"There is a peculiarity of language that confuses many who study this subject. Take, for example, John 14:16,17. Here, Jesus calls the Holy Spirit “the comforter” and uses the pronoun “he” in connection with it. This leads some to feel that the Holy Spirit is a person, because if it were not, the passage would use the pronoun “it.”

"In the Greek language, nouns that would be neuter in English are often masculine or feminine. If the noun is masculine, the pronouns following it must also be masculine. Take the word “rock” for example. In Greek, there are two words for “rock,” one masculine and one feminine. You would speak of the rock as “he” or “she” depending upon which word you use. There is no neuter gendered “rock” in Greek.

"But besides all that, the Holy Spirit is not something other than God. It is the power of God, the breath of God. The mind of the spirit is the mind of God. When the Holy Spirit acts, it is God who is acting.


IN CONCLUSION

"Man’s old idea was of a solitary God. Alone. Aloof. Without peer. Without heir. They thought He was a God who would have said, as James Weldon Johnson put it, “I’m lonely; I’ll make me a world.” He was alone from eternity and would remain alone for eternity. At a festival, He would dine alone.
But then came the Son, and some, still holding to their solitary God, created a Trinity—a God who, though three faceted, was still alone, and who would remain alone. The three sides of the Trinity present a closed Godhead—One that could be adored, but never joined. At a festival, the three would dine as one—alone. God’s family could never increase.

"But when we read the Bible, we find a God who, far from being alone for eternity, seems determined not to be alone at all. He is a Father. He has a Son who is like Him. He intends to have more sons who will be like Him. At festival time, He will be surrounded by family. Scientists tell us the universe has been here for 15 billion years. What has God been doing? Is this the first time He has done this? Will it be the last? God has placed in all His creatures a “reproductive imperative.” Each of His creatures, great and small, must reproduce “after his kind.” It is odd how man, who has the same imperative, and is made in the image of God, misses the point when it comes to what God is doing. God, also, is reproducing after His kind."

Abiyah -- please check out the Bible Study courses 2,3, & 4 for references. Thanks!
link below ----
http://cemnetwork.com/bcc/bcc4.htm

[ April 24, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: wopik ]

 

The Trinity is deep and beyond human pinpoint understanding. Yet, it is not entirely difficult to grasp the concept simply by viewing our own selves. For example, I'm "Three Persons." I'm "ME" an individual man. I'm "ME" the husband. I'm "ME" the Dad. Each essence of "ME" is uniquely different from the others. Yet, it is still "ME" - three distinct "me's" in one dude! Thanks. latterrain77

 

"...she was found with child of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:18).

"...for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:20).

If the Holy Spirit were a real, third person, he would be the father of Jesus, which he is NOT.

 

Can the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit converse back and forth among themselves, and can God join in when He so wishes?