The Total Depravity of Man....

The Archangel · Dec 20, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:

The penalty for sins in the Old Testament was Death. The penalty for sins in the New Testament is Death.

Blood sacrifice in the OLD Testament was made as a form of PAYMENT FOR THE PENALTY OF SIN, and it carried the Same weight with God that Jesus' "blood sacrifice" in the New Testament carries as PAYMENT FOR THE PENALTY OF SINS.

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WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! The Author of the book of Hebrews says that you are wrong. See for yourself:

Hebrews 10:1-4 (ESV)
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [2] Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sin? [3] But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin every year. [4] For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

You say:

No one is saved by Jesus' Atonement! But EVERYONE's SALVATION is ENABLED by it.

Then, how are we saved?

How, then, does Jesus' atonement enable salvation?

You also write:

You have heard that Salvation is "not of works" so with sins dealt with, and Works not included, that leaves FAITH all by itself as the reason or condition of man that causes God to save each individual man. ALL who are Saved are Saved through their FAITH in God.

First of all, you are mis-quoting Ephesians 2:8+9. Let me quote it for you:

Ephes. 2:8-9 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Salvation is not being talked about directly. Sure, it is absolutely a by-product of what Paul is talking about.

Look, however, at the whole passage.

Ephes. 2:1-10 (ESV)
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
[2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— [6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Let's set the context at verse 5. God, because He loved us made us alive while we were dead in out trespasses and sin. Now that is explicitly talking about regeneration, but that's not the issue here.

Why did God do this? Verse 7. So that He could show the riches of His mercy.

Then we get to Verses 8 and 9.

Paul in using "by Grace you are saved" assumes salvation has happened by God's act of regenerating the person.

So, by Grace, God's grace we are saved. How is this accomplished? Through faith.

Paul takes extra, special care to let the reader know that it has nothing to do with them. It is simply and purely a gift of God.

What does "IT" refer to? Grace and Faith. Grace is a gift; faith is a gift. Both of these are given by God at regeneration which affects salvation. In no way, shape, or form is any of this done on man's part.

So, in short, Grace and Faith are not of works. Salvation, insofaras Paul is writing here, is not necessarily being actively talked about. He is discussing HOW it happened. And it is all God.

This passage provides a pretty convincing arguement for the so-called "5-Points of Calvinism."

Faith, as you claim above, is not something intrinsic to humans. Furthermore, the way you talk about it seems to suggest that you can, by faith, cause God to do something. This is simply not the case seeing that "God does all that He pleases."

Psalm 115:3 (ESV)
Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.

Now I'm sure that you'll have something to say about this. Again please cite and explain scripture. I am tiring you your psudo-theology being unsupported by scripture.

Blessings,

Archangel

Yelsew · Dec 20, 2003

NO SIR, I strongly disagree with YOU! Not with the scripture, but with YOUR interpretation of scripture. You need to do what Jesus commanded, YOU need to learn the meaning of words. Without a thorough understanding of terms, you cannot possibly "rightly divide the Word of truth" You are committing murder with the Word of God because you don't know the meaning of terms such as Grace, what it is, how it is used, what it does to the one who uses it, etc. You do not understand Atonement, or "taketh away", nor do you understand FAITH! IF you dare to have your eyes opened, let me recommend a small book, 100 pages, that helped me more than all the voluminous tomes in a seminary school library. The book is Titled "THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOLY" by A. W. Tozer. It is a leisurely afternoon read, that will open your eyes to the truth of Scripture.

Ephesians 2:8&9 "For by Grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast".

Paul takes extra, special care to let the reader know that it has nothing to do with them. It is simply and purely a gift of God.

If you are talking about Salvation you're right, ONLY GOD SAVES! MAN CAN DO NOTHING TO EARN, OR OTHERWISE ACQUIRE SALVATION.

However, God says that we humans must have faith, something that God himself does not have, and therefore, cannot give to us. THAT'S RIGHT! GOD HAS NO FAITH TO GIVE TO MAN! Why? You ask? Because there is absolutely nothing from one end of Eternity to the other that God does not know, or that God hopes for, or that God cannot see. Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Therefore GOD has absolutely no need of faith...BUT MAN DOES! and what a Shame, God has no faith to give to man! KA_POW! There goes the myth about where faith comes from! Besides, "Faith cometh by hearing, and Hearing by the Word of God" You will notice the Hearing is the Source of FAITH, the hearing of the Word of God! Yes, God gave us his word, but he does not make us hear it!

What does "IT" refer to? Grace and Faith. Grace is a gift; faith is a gift. Both of these are given by God at regeneration which affects salvation. In no way, shape, or form is any of this done on man's part.

Well I have already shot down your understanding of the source of faith. So 'NO', that is not a reasonable nor believable explanation of "it". What is believable is that the 'IT' is SALVATION. How is one saved? Through faith while God's grace is present. OR, "For while God's grace prevails, you are saved through your faith, and not of your selves, Salvation is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast". Grace is God's behavior toward man, Faith is God's requirement of man, Salvation is God's Gift to man.

So, in short, Grace and Faith are not of works. Salvation, insofaras Paul is writing here, is not necessarily being actively talked about. He is discussing HOW it happened. And it is all God.

How is it possible for you to so completely miss the meaning that Paul put into his explanation to the Ephesians.
How is it that you do not understand God's Grace?
How is it that you do not understand FAITH the single paramount basic tenet of Christianity?

This passage provides a pretty convincing arguement for the so-called "5-Points of Calvinism."

ONLY IN THE MANNER THAT YOU HAVE TWISTED IT'S MEANING could it even come close to supporting TULIP!

Faith, as you claim above, is not something intrinsic to humans. Furthermore, the way you talk about it seems to suggest that you can, by faith, cause God to do something. This is simply not the case seeing that "God does all that He pleases."

Who besides humans can have or are required by God to have faith? Why is faith needed? Scriptures do not tell the cattle on a thousand hills to have faith in God! The word of God, the Scriptures, are read by humans only. We do not find dogs sitting around reading or discussing the word of God, nor do we see the mountains chatting among themselves about the wonders of humanity in the manner that man talks about the Grandeur of God's created and beautiful Mountains. FAITH is found only in HUMANITY! HUMAN FAITH is the requirement for HUMAN SALVATION. The only thing faith does to God is shows him that we have met his ONE AND ONLY REQUIREMENT for our salvation. Why can't you think this through? It's as clear as the zit on your nose!

The Archangel · Dec 20, 2003

Yelsew,

You wrote:

NO SIR, I strongly disagree with YOU! Not with the scripture, but with YOUR interpretation of scripture. You need to do what Jesus commanded, YOU need to learn the meaning of words. Without a thorough understanding of terms, you cannot possibly "rightly divide the Word of truth" You are committing murder with the Word of God because you don't know the meaning of terms such as Grace, what it is, how it is used, what it does to the one who uses it, etc. You do not understand Atonement, or "taketh away", nor do you understand FAITH! IF you dare to have your eyes opened, let me recommend a small book, 100 pages, that helped me more than all the voluminous tomes in a seminary school library. The book is Titled "THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOLY" by A. W. Tozer. It is a leisurely afternoon read, that will open your eyes to the truth of Scripture.

This is sad. Again, you never post a scripture, discuss what a scripture says, etc...

No. You post psycho-babble based on the delusions of your own mind.

Therefore, you are not worth talking to. May God have mercy on your soul

Blessings,

Archangel

Yelsew · Dec 20, 2003

Originally posted by The Archangel:
Yelsew,

You wrote:

NO SIR, I strongly disagree with YOU! Not with the scripture, but with YOUR interpretation of scripture. You need to do what Jesus commanded, YOU need to learn the meaning of words. Without a thorough understanding of terms, you cannot possibly "rightly divide the Word of truth" You are committing murder with the Word of God because you don't know the meaning of terms such as Grace, what it is, how it is used, what it does to the one who uses it, etc. You do not understand Atonement, or "taketh away", nor do you understand FAITH! IF you dare to have your eyes opened, let me recommend a small book, 100 pages, that helped me more than all the voluminous tomes in a seminary school library. The book is Titled "THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOLY" by A. W. Tozer. It is a leisurely afternoon read, that will open your eyes to the truth of Scripture.

This is sad. Again, you never post a scripture, discuss what a scripture says, etc...

No. You post psycho-babble based on the delusions of your own mind.

Therefore, you are not worth talking to. May God have mercy on your soul

Blessings,

Archangel

You should have thought of this before you started posting! If you don't want to discuss the fullness of God and all that he has for man, and the man that God created, by anything but scriptures, then you are missing the reality of God's creation. If you so completely ignore the reality of God, man and creation, then perhaps you are not wise enough to do so!

The Archangel · Dec 20, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The Archangel:
Yelsew,

You wrote:

NO SIR, I strongly disagree with YOU! Not with the scripture, but with YOUR interpretation of scripture. You need to do what Jesus commanded, YOU need to learn the meaning of words. Without a thorough understanding of terms, you cannot possibly "rightly divide the Word of truth" You are committing murder with the Word of God because you don't know the meaning of terms such as Grace, what it is, how it is used, what it does to the one who uses it, etc. You do not understand Atonement, or "taketh away", nor do you understand FAITH! IF you dare to have your eyes opened, let me recommend a small book, 100 pages, that helped me more than all the voluminous tomes in a seminary school library. The book is Titled "THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOLY" by A. W. Tozer. It is a leisurely afternoon read, that will open your eyes to the truth of Scripture.

This is sad. Again, you never post a scripture, discuss what a scripture says, etc...

No. You post psycho-babble based on the delusions of your own mind.

Therefore, you are not worth talking to. May God have mercy on your soul

Blessings,

Archangel

You should have thought of this before you started posting! If you don't want to discuss the fullness of God and all that he has for man, and the man that God created, by anything but scriptures, then you are missing the reality of God's creation. If you so completely ignore the reality of God, man and creation, then perhaps you are not wise enough to do so! </font>[/QUOTE]You Wrote: If you don't want to discuss the fullness of God and all that he has for man, and the man that God created, by anything but scriptures, then you are missing the reality of God's creation.

This is Heresy pure and simple. You are going above and beyond scripture. Paul wrote against this when he wrote about the Judiasers, the rampant greek Gnostics, etc...

God has given the Bible as His revelation. It is sufficient. To go above the scriptures and adhere to doctrines that it does not teach is to play god and commit heresy, which is what you are doing.

Archangel

Yelsew · Dec 20, 2003

Posting the same thing on two different threads when the topic actually somewhat different does not resolve the issues.

Yes, I do read your posts!

Me2 · Dec 22, 2003

Yelsew,

Paul states that everything he has is being replaced with that "of Christ". including faith.

Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

As one is to be resurrected from spiritual death.
there is nothing that we carry with us. It is all of Christ that eventually becomes ours.

including His faith.

that is why I see your viewpoint to be severly skewed. you believe it is "your personal faith" and not "christs very own faith".

Ive stated several times. When the spirit of Christ is "Within our flesh". We receive (or have replaced) everything that is "of Christ" as we are becoming aware that we is becoming him. making us a "new" man.

including "HIS FAITH" (which has already been approved and judged RIGHTEOUS)

(mans faith is NOT approved. thats why it must be replaced.)

also explaining pauls viewpoint. everything he thinks he has gained has become loss.and everything christ is, his goal of attaining the knowledge of.

which means...
Paul become like him. a "little" christ.

Paul gains "Christ's Faith" as well as Christ righteousness.

Ive read tozer..His viewpoints are wrong. as in, he also didnt believe Christ was "IN HIM".

you need to do a phrase search on "faith of" and see the coincidenses of them referring to "faith OF CHRIST".

Me2

Yelsew · Dec 22, 2003

Me2,
The belief system that Paul had as Saul the Pharisee to which Saul operated, died when Jesus confronted him on the road to Damascus. PAUL'S HUMAN SPIRIT, WHICH IS THE LIFE OF THE FLESH, DID NOT DIE. Thus, Jesus changed not only Saul's name to Paul, but his whole belief system. He was no longer a devout Pharisee, but became a devout Christian, while retaining the very same human spirit. Let me illustrate that by saying, the 'operating system' (belief system) of his computer (human spirit) was changed from DOS to WINDOWS. Same computer("spirit"), different operating system ('belief system'). Everything about the HUMANITY of SAUL(DOS)/PAUL(WINDOWS) remained just as God created it, but the operating system by which the Humanity is "vitalized" or "quickened" was changed. Thus what was a relatively ineffective device is now made "user friendly" by simply changing the system by which it operates.

That is how God changes us, HE changes our operating system to conform to HIM, thus we become "user friendly to God".

OUR HUMAN SPIRIT DOES NOT DIE TO BE REPLACED BY CHRIST'S SPIRIT. OUR BELIEF SYSTEM, not our spirit, IS REPLACED BY ONE THAT IS "USER FRIENDLY" TO GOD. We stop being his enemy, and become his friend, He makes us his friend, in the name of His only begotten Son.

Me2 · Dec 22, 2003

Yelsew,

Saul died spiritually. He recoqnized his futlity of fighting against Gods sons and daughters. He realized his inadequacies of Saving himself by "Good works" trying to please God.

He recognized that only Gods mercy could deliver
him FROM SPIRITUAL DEATH.

Saul died, yelsew. He was spiritually judged. and resurrected as "paul in christ".

Paul doesnt mix words. He firmy states. Christ Spirit was "in HIM".

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

yet its only the mysteries of God that veils these truths from its hearers. Paul knows. He explicitly and in detail expresses these ideas. yet until any individual wants to find out these truths. they have to go and ask God. for it is God who holds the veils over their eyes and ears.

Tozer "added to or took away" from the little he understood. for his theology is all goobered up.
If he didnt accept the spirit of Christ "within Him". that was a big roadblock of understanding any truths from God..oh well.

Me2

Yelsew · Dec 22, 2003

Saul died spiritually. He recoqnized his futlity of fighting against Gods sons and daughters. He realized his inadequacies of Saving himself by "Good works" trying to please God.

He recognized that only Gods mercy could deliver
him FROM SPIRITUAL DEATH.

This is not possible Me2, according to the doctrine of total depravity, SAUL was not capable of "recognizing anything spiritual for himself, and now you say that he was! ?????

Saul died, yelsew. He was spiritually judged. and resurrected as "paul in christ".

Paul doesnt mix words. He firmy states. Christ Spirit was "in HIM".

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

All one need do is look at the screen of their monitor to determine which Operating System is present in his computer.

yet its only the mysteries of God that veils these truths from its hearers. Paul knows. He explicitly and in detail expresses these ideas. yet until any individual wants to find out these truths. they have to go and ask God. for it is God who holds the veils over their eyes and ears.

Tozer "added to or took away" from the little he understood. for his theology is all goobered up.
If he didnt accept the spirit of Christ "within Him". that was a big roadblock of understanding any truths from God..oh well.

Then, Like you do with the scriptures you have not correctly read Tozer. You would be the first to scream loudly that one cannot take individual scriptures literally, YET YOU DO! You do not accept the Figurative Speech used throughout scripture. You FAIL to take JESUS words literally while you do insist that Every word out of the mouth of Paul must be taken literally. You are truly very weak in your understanding.

Me2 · Dec 22, 2003

Yelsew,

This is not possible Me2, according to the doctrine of total depravity, SAUL was not capable of "recognizing anything spiritual for himself, and now you say that he was! ?????

sure it is. Paul received the spirit of Christ within him. capable of NOW communicating with the Holy spirit. lets see, did Paul know anything about the OT?. I think He had some literal knowledge of How God worked. once the veil was uncovered from his eyes. He Got an instant Revelation from God. to understand Gods law and its function. the law brought him to recognize his situation of sin and spiritual death. of his need for a propitiator and the now hearing of the death of Jesus. He also put all of what he had seen and heard from his victims under persecution together.

Saul had the wisdom. all he needed was the revelation from the holy spirit..He got his prayers answered.

We must have the spirit of christ within us...or else its an exercise of futility.

the spirit of christ has two components. the spirit of Life (righteousness of jesus) and the law. its the laws job to uncover works of the flesh. when we are convicted of the law. we recognize ourselves to be sinners. Sins consequences are spiritual death.
Saul went through a lot in a short amount of time because he already knew the law. but He was not convicted of its power until the introduction of the spirit of Life. the law delivers one into spiritual death and the spirit of Life resurrects them from spiritual death.

Saul recognized his fate by the spirit that was within HIM.

all christians go through the same experiences. they are convicted of sin via the law until it delivers them totally into spitritual death. then and only then do they recognize the impossibility of escaping without Gods intervention. ie Jesus.

All one need do is look at the screen of their monitor to determine which Operating System is present in his computer.

many people read a lot. they can memorize many things as well as "believe" what they choose to. fortunately God teaches in his own methods. we dont learn from reading a book. we learn by having a relationship with God. A converstaion, yelsew. and not only a conversation. but we need PROOF of existence of truth. we need understanding to acknowledge wisdom. It is God who supplies man with both compoments (wisdom and understanding) necessary to obtain knowledge.

God is sovereign Yelsew. Man does not have Free Will. maybe some scripture?

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

It is God who molds the vessel. not man. It is God who reveals and veils wisdom (hearing) and understanding (seeing) truth.

although, I do have a soft spot for those who recognize others inadequacies and attempts to change their fate. But Gods still has the final say so, in that he still blinds the eyes of the unbelieving..He is Sovereign, yet merciful.

yet If you understood the mystery within this idea of vessels of wrath and mercy you would discover the end result....

hat God eventually has mercy on all..in his timing and methods.

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Then, Like you do with the scriptures you have not correctly read Tozer. You would be the first to scream loudly that one cannot take individual scriptures literally, YET YOU DO! You do not accept the Figurative Speech used throughout scripture. You FAIL to take JESUS words literally while you do insist that Every word out of the mouth of Paul must be taken literally. You are truly very weak in your understanding.

first. the spirit of Christ is the image of man.

we receive this image or SPIRIT upon initial salvation. no figurative no allegories. no parables. although, I could say this to you till the cows come home. but its not my job to teach you new truths. thats Gods and Only Gods responsibility.

To you..the spirit of the actual resurrected Christ being "in MANS flesh" sounds like jibberish. but to many reading this. theres a hearty amen!.
difference is your not counted in that present number..yet!

and yes, I can read literal words as they are initially intended to be literal.

Now, You keep screaming of mans "faith". If one is resurrected from spiritual death. It is because of the mercy of our creator that it be So and the spirit of Christ that is "within you" prooving that his righteousness is more powerful than the power of Death. NOT MANS FAITH.

It is Christs faith that eminates from his spirit "within man" that makes the understanding possible.

for only He has provided Proof of its occurance.

Not blind belief...with no proof.

Me2

Yelsew · Dec 22, 2003

You still fail to define "spirit" as you are using it. Until you do, I can only presume that by the way you use it you mean that which gives life to the flesh as Jesus described it.

If we are to receive 'that' Spirit of Christ in us, either we would have to be at the right hand of God the Father, OR Jesus the Son of God would have to leave the right hand of the Father and return to our realm in order to impute his Spirit in us.

So define the meaning of the spirit of christ as you use it so that, perhaps, we can come to agreement.

If you cannot define it, then please don't use it!

The Total Depravity of Man....

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