Total Depravity

The confusion here concerns what one believes about nature. If nature can change, then Adam’s state before/after the fall in the sphere of TD is consistent. If nature doesn’t change, then TD is inconsistent.

What is nature? IMO, Nature is the inherent character or essence of something or someone. If the inherent characteristics we attribute to Adam can be changed, they are not of his nature. Unfortunately, many believe Adam’s nature changed after the fall. IMO, a misunderstanding of what nature is.

One must decided for themselves what Adam’s nature is BEFORE the fall. Whatever his nature is before the fall, it should stay the same AFTER the fall.

 

Wow, I need to minister in your neighborhood. The biggest problem I face in ministry is getting people to realize they are sinners before God.

 

The sinner in his or her mind knows they are 'sinners,' and as you just said, it is our ministry to convince them in their heart/soul that they need to change and have their sins remitted. Before you correct me, I do know that we only carry the message it is the ministry of the Holy Spirit who must do the work of convicting and convincing them. This is my belief; I hope you feel and believe the same.

 

We where bought with a price, when something is bought, it has no power to cry "I will not be bought"

 

I beg to differ with you. Stating that he became totally depraved does not tell anyone anything! Maybe you think you are speaking intelligently, but you are not saying anything intelligent! So just what did happen to Adam and Eve? They did not die in the flesh, but lived a paltry 800 years or so, as did their children and their children for several generations.

Latreia said,

If TD is the result of the fall of man, then where does the fall of man begin? "The Fall" had roots too, "Original sin". Scriptures reveal that Original Sin is disobedience of God. If TD were understood correctly one would see the direct equation of TD to Original Sin, which is: "disobedience of/to God". You have used terms like "incorrect response" in describing TD. Well, sir what is "incorrect response" if not "disobedience of God"? The human physical nature has little to do with the Fall which resulted from Original Sin. Disobedience of God is not a physical thing, it is TS (Totally Spirit). The life of the flesh is Spirit, the flesh is dead without a spirit, Dead flesh cannot disobey anyone or anything, and it cannot behave in a depraved manner! So it is TS that can become depraved, for it is spirit that disobeys, flesh simply goes along for the ride.

If heretical, then it should be easy to prove it false, and to provide support for your allegation to which I say to you,
Prove your allegation!
Prove that what I said is false!
Prove that God is not Spirit!
Prove that Man does not consist of spirit that occupies a body of flesh!
Prove that man's spirit is not what distinguishes man from all other forms of flesh!
Put up or shut up!

If human flesh is so important to God, why does He allow our flesh to decompose and in many cases be blown with the wind, or scavenged from the sea bottom, or eaten by the worms, etc. Human flesh is nothing to God, He made it from the least expensive material available, DIRT of the earth! Our spirit is what is important to God, because it is our spirit that can commune with God and "sup with Him and he with us".

[Personal attacks deleted]

Jesus, God's only begotten son, told us that God is spirit, and that man must worship God in spirit and in truth! If God is spirit, and we are made in his image, then we too are spirit!

Scripture tells us that the life of human flesh is spirit. When the flesh dies, the spirit does not die but as Paul teaches for those who are saved, that the spirit goes to be immediately in the presence of God. If our spirit could die, it would take our flesh with it! Jesus commended his spirit into The Father's care, thus releasing it from the tortured and brutalized flesh that hung on the cross.

You ever hear of death (Rom 5:12). You make a statement that is directly refuted by Scripture and then wonder why we reject your position. Amazing ... </font>[/QUOTE]Death? Who among us will live this natural life to see 800 years as Adam is reputed to have done? The death referred to is spiritual death, a metaphor for eternal spiritual separation from God for which God required a blood sacrifice for atonement. Abel, Adam's second son, offered such sacrifice which was found acceptable to God and which resulted in his death at the hands of a jealous older brother. If Adams sin resulted in physical death, the angelic beings would have carried Adam's and Eve's carcasses from the garden, and God's created being Man would exist no longer. But you are here, so that proves that myth invalid.

You ever here of Christ? He was fully human and fully God. Again, your statement is directly refuted by Scripture.[/quote]When did the Christ take up a human body? It was not in the days of Creation nor of Adam and Eve, but some 3 to 4 thousand years later.

So now you are a universalist? You should say that God never denied salvation to a human who desired it. Then you would be biblically correct.</font>[/QUOTE]Then that would not refute the notion humans are totally depraved in the sense that some of you have been stating it. Furthermore, That is what I said!

After "The Fall"

Now I ask you, does this scene depict "Total Depravity"? Sin and consequence! Interesting that Adam was fathering children when he was 136 years old, and lived to be 800 years old. I guess that in 800 years Adam could have become depraved, but we have no record of that.

And let me add this, your cheap labels "so now you are a universalist?" do not become a Christian pastor. The way you used the label seems derogatory. You warned me against labeling another, then you do it! Amazing!

[ January 09, 2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Birds fly, Humans also take to the air. Fish swim below the surface of the water, man also lives under water for long periods of time. Therefore let us rule out nature or natural things.

We cannot rule out nature and natual things. That is the realm God chose for us to live in. We, as humnas, do the natural things allowed by our particular nature.

Yes, a man can live underwater.......but not without the aid of a submarine and yes, man can fly; but I wouldn't want to try it without an airplane!

 

Hi Traveling minstrel;
Yes we were purchased. I wonder if you are one who thinks that we will all get to heaven weather we follow Christ or not, because of that purchase...
Romanbear
Peace

 

Hi I'm Blessed;
A quote from you;
_____________________________________________________________
Birds fly, Humans also take to the air. Fish swim below the surface of the water, man also lives under water for long periods of time. Therefore let us rule out nature or natural things.
______________________________________________________________
Since man can will him self to go against nature as you have described.Then it only seems true to man that He can and does control his destiney.Doesn't it?. By nature he will wind up in hell but by choosing Christ he will live for ever.A men
Romanbear
Peace

[ January 09, 2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: romanbear ]

 

What??? Man can't will himself to go against nature. In order to do these things, he must add something he doesn't have, further proof of the analogy to the biblical position.

 

The following quote is not mine:
Birds fly, Humans also take to the air. Fish swim below the surface of the water, man also lives under water for long periods of time. Therefore let us rule out nature or natural things.
................................

Hi Roman: I believe we can somewhat control our destiny by the choices we make. If I decide to walk out in front of a moving truck, I am contolling my destiny by making the wrong choice!

When we change our sin nature by becoming a child of God, that is a heart change which hopefully will bring about a physical change. But, no, we cannot change our nature as far as growing wings to fly or growing gills to swim.

 

Yelsew,

"Stating that he became totally depraved does not tell anyone anything!"

It should, if you've paid attention to the efinitions of TD.

"So just what did happen to Adam and Eve?"

This has been dicussed, TD being the shorthand for it.

"If TD is the result of the fall of man, then where does the fall of man begin? "The Fall" had roots too, "Original sin"."

The Fall is the consequence of Original Sin.

" Scriptures reveal that Original Sin is disobedience of God. If TD were understood correctly one would see the direct equation of TD to Original Sin, which is: "disobedience of/to God"."

"Understood correctly"? You don't get to define the term. TD has a definition remember? Deal with it. TD and Original Sin are not equatable. TD is more clesely assicuated with the Fall, a consequence of Original Sin. Deal with it.

"You have used terms like "incorrect response" in describing TD. Well, sir what is "incorrect response" if not "disobedience of God"?"

This is not relevant. The incrrect response simply confirms, it does not add something new.

"The human physical nature has little to do with the Fall which resulted from Original Sin."

So you assert. But agin ths is not relevant. Original Sin and TD arenot equatable. Deal with it.

"Disobedience of God is not a physical thing, it is TS (Totally Spirit). The life of the flesh is Spirit, the flesh is dead without a spirit, Dead flesh cannot disobey anyone or anything, and it cannot behave in a depraved manner! So it is TS that can become depraved, for it is spirit that disobeys, flesh simply goes along for the ride."

Here you are way out on a limb with nothing scrptural to catch you.

Look kid, you can't specualte about what TD should mean and then critique based on your specualtions. Again stick to the actual doctrine.

"If heretical, then it should be easy to prove it false, and to provide support for your allegation to which I say to you,"

The doctrine of the resurrection is sufficient. Do some reading on it and your objections are answered.Our resurrected flesh wil not decay.

"If you deny this, then it is you who is heretic and Gnostic!...and well...unintelligent!"

Lafd, you nore me with you cheap rhtetoric. I said that the ideas were gnostic and un-christian. Inever said anythig about you. If you cannot maitain the distinction you should not be here.

 

The death here is spirituald eath but it is also physical as is clear from the book of Romans. LIving to 800 years is not the issue. Adam would have most likley been immortal if he had not sinned. these are the words of Scripture you are arguing with. As is clear from Scripture, sin did not result in immediate physical death.

But his humanity was determined from eternity past when he became the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Again, your argument is with Scripture.

No it doesn't. Man's will is regenerated by God and that is what makes him willing. You misunderstand some of the most basic points of this.

I did not use it derogatorily. It was a rhetorical question designed to show a fundamental fallacy with your point. You said that God did not withhold salvation from anyone. That is a textbook definition of universalism and it is not what Scripture said. The question pointed out that your statement (which I believe was probably a mistatement on your part) was a contradiction of Scripture.

 

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Nothing Happened to his humanity except a slight relocation from a beautiful Garden to possibly arid wasteland.
...................................

That certainly was NOT the only thing that happened. Among other things; have you heard of LABOR PAINS???

 

Yelsew,

This is your final warning. You need to back off on the rhetoric. Calling someone a gnostic and a heretic and unintelligent is outside teh bounds of this forum. YOU have been previously warned. From the tone of your posts, it sounds as if you need to take a break to let your emotions cool down. Should you not be able to handle it on your own, I will be glad to help with a formal suspension. From here on out, your participation is in your hands. Cool the rhetoric and talk about the ideas.

FYI -- talking about beliefs that are gnostic or heretical is, in some cases, acceptable, if a case is made for it. Referring those comments toward a person is what you did and it is wholly unacceptable.

Please correct your demeanor.

 

Just to be helpful,

The reason I said the ideas were gnostic and heretical are simply that they don't jibe with the doctrine of the resurrection, and have more in common with Greek and gnostic notions of the immortality of the soul. These folks posited a dichotomy between matter and spirit, where spirit is superior and good and the physical inherently evil. Much of what you have said, about harkens to this.

 

Alexander Maclaren, one of England's great Baptist preachers said, 'God, the Infinite Will, has given to men, whom He made in His own image, this inexplicable and awful power of coinciding with or opposing His purpose and His voice.' {Alexander Maclaren, "Expositions of Holy Scripture" (Hodder and Stoughton, n.d.), II: pg. 333-334.

Apart from any special drawing of selected people, Isaiah tells sinners to, 'Seek ye the Lord while He may be found, call ye on Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his ways , and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy on him, and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.

Notice in this passage God calls for humans to 'seek Him' requiring an act of the will, and not only that but to 'call on Him.' There is no doubt that He enables us to 'forsake our bad ways and evil' but in this passage the human is asked by God to 'forsake his ways and unrighteous thoughts.' And again, for emphasis, God says, ' . . . return to the Lord.'

God will never save a person without human response to the free gift of everlasting life. [John 6:35]

 

Hi I'm Blessed
A Quote from you;
_________________________________________________________
The following quote is not mine:
Birds fly, Humans also take to the air. Fish swim below the surface of the water, man also lives under water for long periods of time. Therefore let us rule out nature or natural things
___________________________________________________________
My reply
Wow do you have a short memory Check your post #54 on page 10 this thread
Another Quote from you;
__________________________________________________

I believe we can somewhat control our destiny by the choices we make. If I decide to walk out in front of a moving truck, I am contolling my destiny by making the wrong choice!
__________________________________________________

My reply;
Choice is right. We can also choose weather we go to hell or, not all we have to do is accept and believe.Granted we have to be drawn by the Holy Spirit but, don't worry you can still resist.I resisted for a long time before I accepted and made that commitment,and surrender all that sin I was hanging on to.
Romanbear
Peace

 

Primitive Baptist,

I see your point and question and think it is a good one.

Dr. James Strong in his concordance states this. The word 'return' in the Hebrew language is {shuwb} the root word meaning 'to turn back.' This does NOT necessarily mean (to return to the starting point, states James Strong. He indicates that the word can mean "to retreat." We would not be too far off the mark if the verse read like this. 'Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him RETREAT unto the Lord, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.' [Isaiah 55:7]