Total Depravity

Primitive baptist said,

Did man not fall away from God? That is the basis of Total Depravity is it not?

If before sin, we were "with God" but after the fall we are not. Isn't it clear that Isaiah is telling fallen man to return to God by seeking him and calling for him, and the follow through is repenting from sin and unrighteousness?

Why, if it is impossible for "fallen man to do", would God tell man through Isaiah to seek him? Did God forget that man has fallen and is totally depraved, unable to even call on the name of the Lord, let alone repent from depravity? Total depravity is FALSE DOCTRINE without basis in scripture!

 

Where have I made such statements relative to the evil of the flesh? I have clearly and repeatedly stated that the flesh can do nothing on its own, therefore it can be neither good nor evil. God tells us that the life of the flesh is the spirit. Without spirit, the flesh is dead! If you do not understand that, then you are accusing Paul, the Apostle, of being Gnostic! Paul told us that he eagerly awaits the time when his spirit is separated from the flesh (a dichotomy) so that he (spirit) could be present with the Lord! He said, "to be absent from the flesh is to be present with the Lord!"

Now that you've identified Paul as a Gnostic, let's throw all of his writings and ideas out of the bible!

 

Think about it, "I am blessed 16", was there "labor" in the garden, before the sin? Did Eve know childbirth before sinning? We have nothing that indicates that Adam and Eve even had sex while in the Garden, so why is there any reason to think that they knew what labor pains might be?

Until sin, Adam did not have to till the soil, and they required no clothing either. Did Adam and Eve become sexual beings after the fall or were they created as sexual beings? I believe there were created as sexual beings, hense, male and female. There is no indication that God altered his creation because of sin, he simply expelled man from the state of perfection which "the garden" represented. He then provided a reminder for the woman of her sin by causing childbirth to be painful. The same for Adam for being weak and disobeying God, man must now work hard for survival!

 

Some Christians have allowed 'Calvin' to put a 'spin' on the Scriptures. Go down the page on 330 in the back of Dr. James Strong's Concordance and starting with Matthew 6:30 you will readily understand that faith comes from the heart of a human being through his or her free will. Jesus said, 'O ye of little faith.' There was no incumberance that kept the people gathered on the Mount from believing in Jesus Christ. Though those on the Mount were depraved people yet Jesus spoke to them and penetrated through their proclivity to do evil. Being a part of depraved, humanity through the Fall does not leave us all with a 50 I.Q. God speaks to us through human intelligence and our ability to comprehend His simple truth. Jesus simple words even got through to the simple fisherman, Peter.

In the Gospels alone you can see that faith is not something that God randomly passes out to certain people, for no apparent reason. As we close the Gospels in Luke 22:32 Jesus said, 'But I have prayed for thee, that {thy} faith fail not . . . ' He did not say, "But I have prayed for thee, that My faith in you fail not."

Non-Calvinists like Bill Rielly on Fox News says, 'The spin stops here.'

 

WHY?
When one little tiny itsy-bitsy white lie is sufficient to merit death, is it necessary to conjure up a scheme where all mankind is so evil they cannot hear truth and make a life or death decision? That is what Total Depravity states.

WHY?
When scriptures clearly describe confession and forgiveness, is it necessary to deem mankind incapable of recognizing the state they are in, and recognizing a desire to start again with a clean slate? That is what Total Depravity states.

WHY?
is it necessary in a spiritual war as scriptures clearly state we are in, is it necessary to make the spoils of that spiritual war the major combatent? That is what Total depravity states.

In what other war have the spoils been the combatents? Mankind is the spoils of this spiritual war, we are not the combatents. The war is about dominion over created man. God seeks volunteers while Satan drafts (conscripting non-volunteers)!

Both good and evil are out to capture mankind, Satan through perversion corrupts man, God through redemption, restores man to a holiness state!

Man is the sought after prize, not the enemy, that is, until man refuses to be redeemed (given over to their depraved state).

Those who hear the word and believe turn their backs to Satan and face the glorious light of the Son! Those who face the Son are the elect!

 

Yelsew,

You have not said that matter is evil. You have said much however that makes the body expendable, contrary to biblical teaching. Your comments have more in common wuth gnostic thought than I thinkyou ae aware of.

Why would God make an offer that He knew no one would take? That's not evidence against TD. It is a rhetorical question, one yo see as hagving no answer. Obviously there is an answer, but let me say up fron that even if I didn't have one, your argument, being a non sequitur, would still be no proof against TD. You woud still be forced to show how the lack of an answer requies abandoning TD, and moreover how it supports your position.

But th4ere is a precedent for God making requirements tha people are unable to meet. Take the Law. Clearly God expected the Law to be obeyed, Paul even suggests hat if any person could do it, that person would be justified before God. Yet noone did or, as Paul argues, could.

Now here's the kicker: What did God do about that? Think about it. I think you'll get the point.

 

Well then what do you do with Paul? He said, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" Is he or is he not Gnostic? If he is not, then I am not! That seems very difficult for you to comprehend. If Paul is Gnostic, then do we toss his writings out of the Bible? Do we unlearn all that we learned from him, including Romans 1 - 4 that you claim for "Total Depravity"? Do we throw out 1 Corinthians 12-14? How about Ephesians 2:6 through 11? How about 2 Thessalonians? Just what do we keep of Paul now that he is discovered by Latreia to be Gnostic simply because Paul believed that the Spirit is the important and separable part of the human trichotomy (trinity, the image of God)?

The only place in eternity where a body of flesh is necessary, is this temporal natural life (about 120 years) that our spirits must experience, in which the spirit chooses to be a volunteer for God or become another log for the lake of fire along with Satan and his demons.

God made the offer so that any among the multitudes that would accept, and God new that many would in truth accept and be saved from the ultimate punishment, the second death of Revelation 20:13-15. God is "looking for a few good men", those that choose Him over Satan! And there are many who do make that choice while still in depravity. Then they confess their sins, receive forgiveness, repent and are washed white as snow in the blood of the lamb of God. The offer is there for any who will!

God made the law to show sinful man that what he does is sin in the eyes of God. The upright know the law and live as close to the law as is possible, but the law still defeats sinful man and the only recourse for man is to beg the mercy of the court in which God is the presiding Judge. It is that spirit of defeat in self willed man that God is looking for with the law. The law is intended to break the human will so that God can fix him to conform to Himself! Salvation by faith in Jesus does the same thing, because the law remains, but with Jesus who was one of us, we have a divine advocate that pleads our case for us. Jesus acknowledges us before the father because we acknowledge Jesus before man. Jesus tells the court "Father, I love yelsew because he tells others about me, he is one of my adopted brothers with whom I am pleased". To which The judge, God the Father, raps his gavel declaring that pardon is granted, you may live the rest of eternity with MY only begotten Son."

That's easy, God the Father, gave us his only Son that whosoever believeth in him, even on his name (like the centurian) would have eternal life.

 

The offer you couldn't refuse.

(What do you get when you cross the godfather with a lawyer? An offer you can't understand.)

 

Give us a break Primitive Baptist, Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden. We have no knowledge of how many minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, or years that may have taken place, but they did in fact walk and talk with God. They disobeyed God and ate from the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil". We inherited that knowledge of good (God) and evil (Satan) through their sin. Like their sin giving us a sin nature, the knowledge of good and evil is also part of our nature. Therefore, we ALL have the "experience" of being with God, and knowing good from evil. Thus we are easily convicted of Sin by the Holy Spirit, because we already possess that innate knowledge of good and evil. It is as much a part of our essence as the sin nature itself.

Just as Adam and Eve knew God, and suffered the Consequences of Sin, we too innately know God and suffer the consequences of Sin. Just as Adam and Eve sought forgiveness, and I believe received it in the same way that we do, we too must seek forgiveness for not one of us is pure and holy, that is, upright.

The purpose of Grace is election, for God's grace combined with his Love and Mercy restrains (causes Him to withhold) His Justice! So long as God abides in His grace, giving us his love and mercy, he does not execute his Justice. We who believe in Jesus have time, while God abides in his Grace, to spread the Gospel message to those who believe not (yet)! For it is while God abides in his grace that we can through faith be saved

 

"Well then what do you do with Paul?"

I let Paul be Paul. He is, after all, one of the clearest and most thorought teachers of the resurrection.

"He said, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" Is he or is he not Gnostic?"

He is not. For he is not saying to be a spirirt being is to be with God. He is saying that if he were to die he would be with the Lord. And no he is not a gnostic.

" If he is not, then I am not! That seems very difficult for you to comprehend."

Your comments lack the balance of his thought. Just because you say thongs that resemble some of his ideas does not make yor theology truly Pauline.

You fail to impress at all that you are anything but heterodox in your beliefs at this point.

Basicvally I find that in many areas you j=have a lopsided, or truncated understanding of bibical theology. Which, to be technical, is exactly how heresy starts. Heresy is just taking things that are half of the whole truth and elevating them beyond their status as being half the truth.

Simply put, your theology is out of balance3, which is why your theology is Pelagian at some points, and gnostic at others.

"The only place in eternity where a body of flesh is necessary, is this temporal natural life (about 120 years) that our spirits must experience, in which the spirit chooses to be a volunteer for God or become another log for the lake of fire along with Satan and his demons."

Better take it up with God and His Word. He says that we will have a physical body forever.

"The offer is there for any who will!"

I know that's what yo think, but it is at best only a possible answer. As I said, you need to do better than that. Its a non sequitur.

"God made the law to show sinful man that what he does is sin in the eyes of God."

That's not all. And your not addressing the point. I am pointing out that there is a precedent for God making demands/offers that people are unablke to fulfill. If the Law is one, then there is no logical reason, such as you seem to think there is, for there not to be another example, like willing onesself to believe and answer the general gospel call.

"That's easy, God the Father, gave us his only Son that whosoever believeth in him, even on his name (like the centurian) would have eternal life."

That's true, but incorrect. God sent Jesus because we are UNABLE to fulfil the Law on our own. It required God to do the work of fulfilling the Law, because we are unable to do so.

 

I said, "He said, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" Is he or is he not Gnostic?" You said,

Just what part of Paul do you think is with the Lord? Since all the other graves are occupied, it is safe to say that Paul's physical remains occupy the grave where they were laid?

What does "absent from the body" mean? What is it that absences itself from the body? That's right it is life! Jesus said,

So I guess Jesus is Gnostic too! From what you said, it seems that you do not believe!

 

Yelsew, Keep up the good work, I've been reading your posts for sometime now you're right Total Depravity is a false Doctrine and that's being nice about it.

if you were in Christ(you must have been saved..anyone in Christ is) before the foundation of the world, you clearly FELL OUT of Christ when you were born ( lost the salvation)..therefore having the wrath of God abiding on you (Jn.3:36) now is that any way for god to treat the "elect" of God??

So you were in god, then you fell out of God, only to have to be put back into God again! And you believe in eternal security! Perhaps if were to read ephesians in it's right text you would see your error!

Furthermore...God's elect were not Gentiles..they were the JEWS.. As so stated by Scripture. Isa. 45:4 "ISRAEL MINE ELECT"
trying to steal titles that don't belong to you are you???

I showed you where it said that Isreal was God's elect and not gentiles ..yet I doubt you will believe that I'm sure you will still refer to yourself as the "elect" of God.. So why should anyone waste time continuing to point out the offer that is right there in scripture to you..you wouldn't believe it even if it was spelled out In these words.."The Gospel is an offer for anyone to take"

Yelsew said:

Latreia said:

You said Jn.3:16 was correct but incorrect.

Thank you for showing your true stance on the Word of God..You don't agree with it.I mean the Bible is either correct or it isn't. there isn't an in between

the Bible said ..."God So loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH on him SHOULD NOT perish butr have everlasting life. I didn't read anything in there about the Law..it said whosoever Believeth on Him.

As in Acts 16:30 when the jailer asked.." What Must I DOto be saved? vs.31 And they said BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved and thine house. this makes TD a lie right here..the man was about to kill himself but then wants to know how he can be saved...why didn't paul tell him he had to be one of the elect?? because Calvinsm isn't true.

The Law was the schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus.That is what the Bible says Gal. 3:24 Of course noone can keep the Law..thats is why they had to bring sacrafices to the priests! The Law was to show us our sinnfulness there by pointing us to christ so we could have a Lamb to bring to God to cover our sins. that includes all people.

Yet you would say.. that God gave the law knowing we couldn't keep the law..this would show us our inability..this would show us our need of Christ, and when we saw our need we still couldn't receive him, even though God Commanded us to do it..Kind of like that "seek" thing..

[ January 11, 2003, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

Yes it is something you said! We aren't talking about will-worship. Just like scripture you take everything and twist it into something it's not. You ought to step back from posting scripture if you're not going to use it correctly..

How many times have you been told and any other calvinist that we dont' believe man can "WILL" his salvation.
It's not about will..you should be honest and not play word games. The Bible said

AS MANY AS RECIEVED (jn.1:12) not as many as were overcome by the holy spirit.

By the way the scripture also says.. Not by the will of man..meaning I can't will someone's salvation..I could want my Sister saved, all I want, But I Couldn't WILL her to be saved and her be saved..she would have to accept the offer(Jesus)..when something is offered..like The GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE..you either decide to recieve it or not recieve it.

[ January 10, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

Thanks for the judgment call god.

Either you do not read what I write, or you have a very limited ability to understand. I have never denied original sin...ever! Nor have I ever stated that man can be righteous if he wants to! But man does have the ability to choose! You are quite simply WRONG about me god!

I place no value above faith...period! And I have never said anything that implies that I think I have faith that transcends matter.

Your theology has no greater claim to balance. Total Depravity, Indeed!

 

Thanks for accurate support Shilo!