Total Depravity

Can you come up with something a little more original than that??of course all Calvinist say the exact same thing when nailed between the eyes with their obsurdity. Be careful..your pride is beginning to show!

(shilo wiping the tears out of his eyes, can't stop laughing)

(Shilo regains composure) Okay..(whew) if you're of adams seed then you weren't in Christ before the foundation of the world..if you had been you would not have been born in Adams seed. .

This makes NO sense at all

Well My Bible says that the wrath of God abideth on him, ( present tense) I will believe God as he said it. If your not in Christ..you have the Wrath of God on you period..unless your saying the Bible is a lie.

You knew exactly what I was saying..Please don't try to play "unknowing"..
Israel is Still God's chosen nation..they will be restored Perhaps you ought to read Romans 11:1-28

"hath God cast away his people? God Forbid....God hath NOT cast away his people...Blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.."

That is another subject altogether..Again I ask you Is God lying??or do you just not understand some things? seriously?!

Yes.... the Gospel is for Anyone to take . It's a FREE GIFT....Jesus Not only paid the price for our sin but he is the propiation for the sins of the whole world 1Jn.1:2 which also lines up with 2 peter 2:1 which lines up with Hebrew 10:29...ect..

Jesus Died for the whole world. for the wicked and ungodly..unless your saying that only the Calvinist are wicked and ungodly, then you might have an argument..but according to my Bible the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Your vulgarity does nothing for your credibility. In No way shape or form did I insinuate that the Church was anything like you made out. Again that is a perfect example of your ability to pervert things.

No according to you it isn't true...be honest you don't really believe that..or you wouldn't be a calvinist.. WHOSOEVER..that means ANYONE..that means that WHOSOEVER has the ability to go to God for eternal life.

I'm not a universalist..I don't believe all the world will be saved someday..I believe everyone has the ability to accept Christ..there is a difference..

but as many as RECIEVED RECIVED RECIEVED..you have to recieve Jesus..like recieving a gift..recieving an offer of salvation. You could have salvation IF you RECIEVE what Jesus did..It's an Offer..a gift..a Payment..( for the one 1,000 time)

Yes God is the only one who can save a soul..no man can will it..i explained that..But in order for you to have God grant you salvation, you must first RECIEVE Him.

Arrogance is not a pretty thing..Again..the fruit of Calvinism..

[ January 11, 2003, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

Explain?

Are you trying to say that Adam was the embodiment of the Son of God? or that Adam was the embodiment of the incorruptible spiritual seed? Adam is the first of kind, as Jesus is the first, and only, of kind.

Don't stop at verse 11, as Paul Harvey says, "and now for the rest of the story"

He took to himself, does that mean "elected" the line of Abraham (the Jews)? So does that mean then that believing gentiles like the Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, and Romans the Americans, the Canadians, the British, the etc., ...are not the elect?

How could it, the Christ is divine and Holy!

 

[qb]Originally posted by Yelsew:
Nothing Happened to his humanity except a slight relocation from a beautiful Garden to possibly arid wasteland.
...................................
My Reply
That certainly was NOT the only thing that happened. Among other things; have you heard of LABOR PAINS???

Quote from Yelsew
Think about it, "I am blessed 16", was there "labor" in the garden, before the sin? Did Eve know childbirth before sinning? We have nothing that indicates that Adam and Eve even had sex while in the Garden, so why is there any reason to think that they knew what labor pains might be?

My Reply
They might not have known what 'labor pains' were; but because of the fall every woman who has given birth since then certainly does! Just think; we could have had painless childbirth!

Quote from Yelsew
Until sin, Adam did not have to till the soil, and they required no clothing either. Did Adam and Eve become sexual beings after the fall or were they created as sexual beings? I believe there were created as sexual beings, hense, male and female. There is no indication that God altered his creation because of sin, he simply expelled man from the state of perfection which "the garden" represented. He then provided a reminder for the woman of her sin by causing childbirth to be painful. The same for Adam for being weak and disobeying God, man must now work hard for survival!

My Reply
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children... Genesis 3:16

And unto Adam he said, Because thous hast harkened unto the voice of the wife...cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life... Genesis 3:17

In the sweat of the face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19

Quote from Yelsew
Nothing Happened to his humanity except a slight relocation from a beautiful Garden to possibly arid wasteland.

My Reply
I think we lost MUCH more than just a slight relocation!

[ January 11, 2003, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: I Am Blessed 16 ]

 

ooh..that one hurt!

IT's US who will not accept what the Bible says???

I think It was you who tried to correct the English Bible with The syriac and the Arabic..Maybe you should look in the mirror when making comments like you did! you'd be better off.

you got your questions answered..you just didn't like what you got.

Noone jumped around to avoid any issues..that's all in your imagination..just like your doctrine.

[ January 11, 2003, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

If I am to believe this "not-so depravity" as opposed to the total..... Then I take it that we are all born, more or less, in nuetral. And in our life, it is our choices that put us in drive or reverse (so-to-speak). Then, if we make the good choice...... is it because we are lucky? Is it because we are smart? Is it because we are wise? Is it because we have common sense? The common denominator in all the above is the word "WE". Should I assume that there is something inheriently good or some ability to choose well in those who come to Christ........ Do we earn our way into His favor by good choices?

Now to my brothers who believe in the Sovereignty of God which includes this idea of Total Deparvity let me remind you:

"There are two practical matters which it is always well to remember in connection with the Sovereignty of God. Firstly, while this is a truth which every minister of the gospel is called to proclaim, it is not a subject which should be made a matter of argument amongst Christians. Indeed, the Christian who professes to believe this truth and yet talks as if others can be persuaded to accept it by the power of words and discussion is, in reality, denying his very profession. The one who truly believes that grace and light and spiritual understanding are gifts of God will not attempt to argue about such matters. Rather he sill seek to adorn the doctrine by a quiet and patient spirit and to 'put on... as the elect of God... kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forebearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you,so also do ye'(Col. 3:12,13)"

This quotation comes from the PUBLISHERS' PREFACE to the A.W. Pink book, "The Sovereignty of God".

I would love to have included even more of this preface..... even to have included the entire book for consideration. If you are so inclined you may read it for free online as well as many of his other works at

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/pinks_archive.htm

 

First of all Lets try to be honest about what we are talking about. we aren't really talking about Depravity of man..no we are talking about the Inability of man to accept and recieve Jesus as Saviour as a result of his depravity..However.. Noone disputes man is depraved..of course he is...

You take it that man is born neutral??who ever said that?? where did you get that?? Noone is born neutral. All have SINNED and come short of the Glory of God.

YEP we sure do when we make the Choice to RECIEVE (Jn 1:12)the Gift that the Lord has given the world.

P.S. Total Depravity is a FALSE doctrine..

[ January 11, 2003, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

Shilo,

You have been back a very short period of time and you are already pushing the envelope with your demeanor. You need to clean it up. If you wish to discuss things in a rational and civil manner, please do so. Laughing at others, posting derogatory remarks about others, etc. will not be tolerated.

Keep your posts centered on Scripture and the accurate explanation of it. Keep your posts off of other people.

PB,

The same goes for you though you have not stooped to the level of Shilo.

Let's all make a concerted effort to respond with grace to those who disagree with us. Keep the discussion centered on the text of Scripture.

 

Having just arrived, perhaps you are out of the loop. We are talking about depravity and the extent of it. Inability is a part of depravity because depravity affects all of man, including the will. Inability is clearly seen in passages like John 6 and Rom 8 where words like "cannot" and "are not able" are used. That unequivocally refers to inability.

YEP we sure do when we make the Choice to RECIEVE (Jn 1:12)the Gift that the Lord has given the world. </font>[/QUOTE]This is false doctrine. You have just made the cross of Christ of none effect by admitting that your position is one of merit. We do not earn favor; if we did it would be a wage. The favor of God is bestowed apart from anything that we do to merit it.

The only false doctrine is the one that does not line up with Scripture. So far, you have not proven total depravity to be refuted by Scripture. So far, your own doctrines have been shown to be out of line with Scripture. It appears that you are the one holding the false doctrine.

Remember, all doctrine must conform to Scripture because Scripture is the final word.

 

I laughed at what was said..not the person there is a differance. I also haven't posted anything derogatory either.
_______________

Moderator's note: You have posted some things that are derogatory and outside the rules of this forum. You have mocked those who disagree with you. You have forced me to do more moderating in the last day or so hours than I have done in weeks. Clean up your demeanor and participate in the conversation with grace. Should you not make the choice to do that, we will help you. Please do not force us to do that. Your participation is your here is your choice, but we will enforce your choice if you do not abide by the simple rules of the forum. I do not like heavy handed moderation and I refuse to do it. I will not, however, tolerate the kind of posting that you are known for. Help us out here please.

[ January 11, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

It proves nothing of the sort.

I admitted no such thing..What I said was

I should have made it clearer that I didn't believe we were saved by works.

 

Well then you know why I give up. He never sticks around to defend a single issue. He just moes to anoter one as if by standing on that he wil have defended the other ground.

I see no point in answering ths fuirther. It only serves to give him the idea that his theology has merit.

 

I have a suggestion.

I'm all for determining the validity of a doctrine.

Someone for Total Depravity diligently post in one post every scripture reference (no commentary or opinions) that brings one to the conclusion that TD is a valid doctrine. If you arrived at TD from scripture, the rest of us should also arrive at TD from the same scriptures.

This should provide a reference point from which this discussion can be kept on track.

I am willing to be convince by scripture that my belief is wrong and to accept a different view. but it must be based on scripture AND reasoning. But it must be scripture first! If the Word of God fails to convince, then God's words are not true when he said to wit, "my word sent abroad never returns void."

Once this has run its course, we will do the same for those who suffer from the milder form of depravity.

 

It proves nothing of the sort. </font>[/QUOTE]Then you must explain why "You cannot come" means "You can come." The text is clear. How do you get around it?

I admitted no such thing</font>[/QUOTE]You admitted that you believe that man earns salvation. Scripture says he doesn't. You may want to clarify your post.

 

The first documentation of a humans evil heart is recorded in Genesis 6:3. If people are so depraved and spiritually as dead as a human corpse,that they cannot respond to God, why then did we have Almighty God striving with humankind? The word, 'strive' in the Hebrew is {duwn, doon} meaning to strive as at law; contend, plead, or to plead a cause.

If 'Total Depravity' was completely, Biblical-- God would not focus a concentrated effort on bringing all men and women out of spiritual darkness; He would merely pick His chosen few as the Calvinist believes. In fact, if all were totally depraved God would have limited a 'no access' to all of His created beings.

 

Why does Jesus offer choice to the multitudes that gathered to hear him speak?

For example John 6:22-60 the discourse in the synagog at Capernaum, an open meeting, is full of choices for the people listening. "If" you do this, you get this, etc. Now it is true, Jesus was addressing religious people, but not those who believe in him, and not all the people who heard him were drawn by the father to him. In truth, few who heard him remained long to hear more. However, there were some who remained to hear more and some were convinced of who Jesus is.

The fact is, all who heard Jesus speak had the personal individual choice to believe and accept or to reject and depart. So then, how were the few drawn to Jesus? Was it the work of God that some were compelled to be in that place at that time? Or were they there out of some duty to the synagog? or at the invitation of a friend or neighbor? Or were they the last ones invited to "the wedding feast"? I think that matters little, because it was still left up to the individual to hear the word, and choose to believe it or reject it. They did not come preconditioned to believe what they heard, but may have had a void in their spirit that needed filling. Now, the Spirit of God was present to convince those who would believe that what they heard was true.

Their belief may be because of something they heard before such as "a great teacher" is giving this powerful lecture, declaring himself to be the Bread from Heaven that brings life. But of course, Jesus words had not previously been spoken so that cannot be true. So that leaves the choice up to the individual hearer at an opportunistic encounter with the Christ. Opportunity or not, the individual made the choice, not divine power forcing the issue.

One thing is certainly true, Total Depravity was not in control at the meeting. Those attending were "good people" who sin, not "bad people" who sometimes do good. They were people just like you and I who struggle with issues hourly. They may be seekers searching for truth, but they were certainly not people so depraved as to be identified as Totally Depraved. That is why "Total Depravity" is false doctrine. It is neither consistant nor "Total".

I believe that there are 8 or 9 totally depraved people in the world, but they get around a lot!

I add this, Many who were in attendance may have been "the ground receiving seed". They may have had to take that seed and ponder it before making a decision, and of course they may have been the very rocky soil in which truth may germinate and sprout up only to wither and die. But the choice remains their own individual choice.

 

Consider the "IFs"

If, is an indicator that something follows that the reader or hearer must decide upon.

If this occurs, we must do... or ....!
If this is true, then ..........!
If you don't .........then.........!

The Holy Scriptures contain many "IFs".