Are there any GOOD Christmas Carols?

I guess the cold, drizzly weather yesterday made my mind wander (it was 35 overnight). I use a hymnal for devotions and the words of these great songs lift my spirit.

Happen to be in the Christmas section - and reading the words I find post-mill and a-mill, along with unitarian drivvel that is really bad.

Or tripe (God rest ye merry, Gentlemen; We three kings; Little drummer boy).

How can we teach SOUND DOCTRINE from the pulpit while singing such BAD DOCTRINE in our Christmas music?

Thoughts -

Can I suggest a Donut Man song? (Rob Evans)

'Oh the best present of all is JESUS! Oh the best present of all is God's son! Oh the best present of all is from HIM!'

I like the following Christmas "carols":

The Birthday of a King
Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus (prophecy)
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing
Infant Holy, Infant Lowly
Joy to the World!
O Come, All Ye Faithful
O Come, O Come, Emmanuel (more prophecy though)
O Little Town of Bethlehem
Once in Royal David's City
Who is He in Yonder Stall?

Anything dealing with the three kings is out... Or I would choose "What Child is This". These happen to be my favorites, and a cursory glance over the lyrics suggest they may be accurate. Any others?

'Hark! The Herald Angels Sing' is the best I can think of.

Agreeing (Gasp!) with Dr. Bob. There's not much about most of the popular Christmas carols that I like. Bad lyrics, bad tunes.

I do like Angels from the Realms of Glory. And some of the older hymns are really pretty pretty good but are harder to find in the hymnals.

Easter music is far better; some real rousers there.

I love to listen to "Jesu Bambino", sung solo.

"I Wonder as I Wander" is a beautiful a capella solo.

"Thou Didst Leave Thy Thrown".

I believe these to be sound in doctrine, though I'm not too sure of my third choice.

Me too Joshua! There were 3 gift types, not three kings mentioned! Wise men came from afar.

the three kings is out

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I like "Sweet Little Jesus Boy"--my wife and I are gonna try to work it up Acapella for Christmas special!!

We sang an awesome little short cantata this past Christmas that I'd like to do again--I think it was called "From the Cradle to the Cross" or somethin' like that--I'll look and see when I'm at church tomorrow--we added a tiny bit of drama to it---oh, but the praise and glory filled our hearts!

Brother David

Blackbird! Jim sings 'Sweet Little Jesus Boy' acapella too! It's so pretty!

I'm sorry guys! I love Christmas and I love carols. I'll have them going by Nov. 1st day and night. If you don't like the holidays... avoid my house!

Diane

An aside... to Diane... It always bugs me also that we sit the kings in our manger scenes. Hello? Scripture says they came to the house, and I have heard it said that the wise men didn't even arrive until Jesus was almost 2. Then how does that jive with them coming to the manger? Last year, someone asked me why we weren't singing "We Three Kings" and I told them it was not scriptural. You'd have thought I desecrated the manger or something!

And Mary and Joseph took doves as a sacrificial offering .... because they had not received the Gold, Frankencense and Myrrh yet!

Yep, Joshua, I saw program at a planetarium that predicted the wise men probably came when Jesus was between 2-4 years old.

That irks me too. Oh, and ask a child about Zacchaeus! They'll tell you he was about 3 inches tall! I always ask them, 'How did Jesus go into his house if he was that 'wee' little man?' And Goliath! They think he was taller than the church building instead of about 9 foot tall.

Diane

What about "Good King Wenceslas"? Who was he?

Other than possibly disagreeing that the wise men were kings and that there were only three, what other objections would you all have to "We Three Kings of Orient Are"? To be fair to the author, in his day it was quite common to interpret Psalm 72:10 and a few other passages as referring to these men (see Matthew Henry for an example). Though I don't agree with it, I view this as interpretational matter rather than outright going against what the scripture says (such as putting the wise men at the manger, which this song does not do).

We three kings of Orient are
Bearing gifts, we traverse afar,
Field and fountain, moor and mountain,
Following yonder star.
(They were from the east and they did follow the star probably over many types of terrain)

Refrain:
O star of wonder, star of light,
Star with royal beauty bright,
Westward leading, still proceeding,
Guide us to thy perfect light.
(This is framed like a prayer, a wish, a hope, to find that to which the star guides)

Born a King on Bethlehem’s plain
Gold I bring to crown Him again,
King forever, ceasing never,
Over us all to reign.
(Uses the idea of gold to represent Jesus as King, which He is)

Frankincense to offer have I;
Incense owns a Deity nigh;
Prayer and praising, voices raising,
Worshipping God on high.
(Uses the idea of frankincense to represent Jesus as God, which He is)

Myrrh is mine, its bitter perfume
Breathes a life of gathering gloom;
Sorrowing, sighing, bleeding, dying,
Sealed in the stone cold tomb.
(Uses the idea of myrrh to represent Jesus as sacrifice, which He is)

Glorious now behold Him arise;
King and God and sacrifice;
Alleluia, Alleluia,
Sounds through the earth and skies.
(Sums up Jesus as King & God & sacrifice, and adds the idea of resurrection & praise)

I really can't find much to object to in this song, and the "3 kings problem" can be easily fixed by substituting the words "wise men" in place of "three kings".

Ditto to most of Joshua's list

I agree with Joshua and Diane about numbering the "kings" to 3, and the time of their arrival.

I also agree with rlvaughn about 'We Three Kings'. A couple of blokes and myself did that song at a Christmas in July a few years back. If the reminder of the symbolism of the gifts brought isn't enough, it tops it all with that even more awesome final verse.

Halfway through typing this I had to go grab guitar out and have another go at it Em...B7...Em...B7... Roll on Christmas

Pete

About the time of Daniel (and LaoTzu in China and Buddhain India and Confuscius) the "prophet" Zarathrusta arose in Persia. His followers formed the largest religion of the ancient world - Zoroastrianism.

They developed calendars based on astronomy (NOT astrology) and observatories, etc. Their priests, called "Magi", made calculations for all life function - feasts, planting, harvest, worship, etc.

They also gleaned the sacred writings of the Hindu, Jew, Buddhist, et al, for more information to make Zoroastrianism a truly syncretic religion for all mankind.

THESE are the "wise men" - cultic priests of a pagan religion - who, knowing the writings of Daniel and knowing the Messiah would be born, were looking for astronomical signs.

And God used the "wrath of man to praise Him" as they brought needed gifts to the dirt-poor couple in Bethlehem for their trip and living in Egypt to escape Herod.

Wonderful story, but NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTMAS and certainly not to be emmulated as "heroes" in our carols.

Originally posted by Joshua Rhodes:
Then how does that jive with them coming to the manger?

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You're right. They didn't come to the manger, they came to their house. But I don't lost doctrinal sleep over my nativity scene.

Last year, someone asked me why we weren't singing "We Three Kings" and I told them it was not scriptural.

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Yet another good point. In reality, we don't have a clue how many kings/magi/wise dudes there were. We don't even know how many gifts they brought. We only know they brought three TYPES of gifts. But again, I don't lose any doctrinal sleep over it, and I don't have a problem with "We Three Kings" being sung in church. What's important is what they represent.

O Jesus Christ, all praise to Thee,
Thou who art pleased a Man to be;
To dwell with men Thou dost not scorn,
And angels shout to see Thee born. Alleluia.

Th'eternal Father's only Son
Now takes a manger for His throne;
The everlasting fount of good,
Assumes our mortal flesh and blood. Alleluia.

He whom the world can not enclose
In Mary's bosom doth repose;
To be a little Child He deigns
Who all things by Himself sustains. Alleluia

Th'eternal Light to us descends,
Its brightness to the earth it lends,
And purely shines upon our night,
To make us children of the light. Alleluia.

The only Son, true God confessed,
To His own world now comes a Guest;
And through this vale of tears our Guide,
Dost in His heav'n our home provide. Alleluia.

In poorest guise to us He came,
Himself He bears our sin and shame,
That, as His heirs in heav'n above,
We may with angels share His love. Alleluia.

His love to show, surpassing thought!
God's Son this wondrous work hath wrought;
Then let us all unite to raise
Our song of glad, unceasing praise. Alleluia.

Source: A German first stanza, probably written in the district of Celle, is dated 1370. . . To this stanza Martin Luther added six more of his own. (Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary Handbook)

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Me too Joshua! There were 3 gift types, not three kings mentioned! Wise men came from afar.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> the three kings is out

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</font>[/QUOTE]There's a problem with the chronology, though. There's nothing that says the visit of the Magi occurred at the same time of the Nativity. It could have been up to a couple of years later.

It's really hard to reconcile all the Christmas traditions that have grown up over the ages, with the historical accounts.

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
About the time of Daniel (and LaoTzu in China and Buddhain India and Confuscius) the "prophet" Zarathrusta arose in Persia. His followers formed the largest religion of the ancient world - Zoroastrianism.

They developed calendars based on astronomy (NOT astrology) and observatories, etc.

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I'm sorry, but this isn't correct. For several reasons:

1. The modern estimates for Zoroaster's life are much earlier, and mean that he would not have been a contemporary of Buddha:

http://www.w-z-o.org/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/zoroastrianism/FAQ/

No one knows exactly when Zarathushtra lived. Zoroastrian tradition places him at around 600 B.C.E., but this date is thought by modern scholars to be far too late. The modern estimate of Zarathushtra's date is anywhere from 1500 to 1000 B.C.E.

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That's a minor point in the grand scheme of things, however.

Secondly, the Persians of the ancient world were avid followers of astrology. Zoroastrianism did not abolish astrology; on the contrary, they were known as magicians and astrologers at that time. They were probably the teachers of the Chaldeans, who were known to be expert astrologers. In fact, the word "magi" is the root word for "mage" and "magician".
http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/astrology_astronomy.php

...conquest was the most creative period for Babylonian mathematical astronomy. Astronomical schools existed in Uruk, Sippar, Babylon and Borsippa. The Achaemenians maintained an atmosphere favorable to the development of science. Under Darius a great Babylonian astronomer, Nabu-rimanni (Naburianus), was instructed to carry out a study of lunar eclipses and arrived at calculations more accurate than those of Ptolemy and Copernicus. His works were translated and used for many centuries by all including Seleucid and Parthian rulers of Persia. His picture of Heavens was borrowed by the Greeks and eventually reached the famous Greek scientist Democritus. The terminology employed by Naburianu includes spheres, orbits, ecliptic, inclination, celestial equator, poles, circular motion, revolutions, retrogression, moon’s highest north and south latitudes. All were used extensively by Greek astronomers including the brilliant Eudoxus of Cnidus, precursor of Euclid. Another well known Babylonian astronomer under Persian rule, Kidinnu (Cidenas) of Sippar, distinguished the solar year from the lunar, discovered the precession of the equinoxes and arrived at an exact calculation of the length of the year, making an error of only 7 minutes, 41 seconds.

The advances enabled the astronomers to draw almanacs for the ensuing year. Almanacs in which eclipses of the sun and the moon, and times of the new and full moon were accurately noted. Also the positions of the planets throughout the year were determined using astrological charts. There are tablets that set forth observations of Jupiter from the 43rd year of the reign of Artaxerexes II to the thirteenth year of Alexander the Great. Some old Persian names in astronomy have barely survived. The names of the four "Royal Stars" which were standing guard at the equinoxes and solstices still resembles the modern ones. Aldebaran, Watcher of the East; Regulus, Watcher of the North; Antares, watcher of the West; Fomalhaut, Watcher of the South were used by the Persians. Today’s equivalents would probably be Alcoyne, Regulus, Albireo and Bungula.

Despite all advances astronomy remained inseparably linked to astrology. Astronomical texts, in particular, contain allusions to the ties between the stars and various illnesses. By the end of the Achaemenid period in Babylonia and other territories under Persian rule science had declined and the potential for its development was stalled. Science was no opponent of religion in the ancient times. In fact it developed in the shadow of temples and was influenced by religion.

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You are correct to say that their religion was very powerful and influential.

Their priests, called "Magi", made calculations for all life function - feasts, planting, harvest, worship, etc.

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Yes. Based upon astrology and astronomy both - in the ancient world, they did not exist as separate disciplines. The idea of astronomy and astrology being different would have made no sense to people living in those times. These were superstitious people, who thought the movements of heavenly bodies could influence the daily lives of people and the events of countries.

They also gleaned the sacred writings of the Hindu, Jew, Buddhist, et al, for more information to make Zoroastrianism a truly syncretic religion for all mankind.

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What evidence do you have that Zoroastrians consulted other religious texts when formulating their own code of conduct? If Zoroaster was much earlier than Buddha or Confucius, then obviously his followers couldn't have consulted texts which had not even been written yet. And even if these other religious figures were contemporary with Zoroaster, the evidence for Buddhism is that even three hundred years after Buddha's death, the religion was still confined to the Indian subcontinent.

THESE are the "wise men" - cultic priests of a pagan religion - who, knowing the writings of Daniel and knowing the Messiah would be born, were looking for astronomical signs.

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What evidence do you have that the Wise Men ever read Daniel?

[ September 14, 2003, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: True Blue Tuna ]