Please respond to this verse!

So God instructs us to disobey him?? Does that create a conflict for you? Why would God instruct us to do something against his will? That would be contradictory.

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As I said before, God has His reasons. Perhaps He doesn't see it as murder, although others would.

As to the question of murdering someone, I don't see God telling me to do that, so to tell you the truth, I don't worry about it.

Actions are evil apart from motives at times. Ask Uzzah. He had great motives but had a wrong action. It cost him his life.

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Does one's life really matter? Ours is a battle for salvation. What when we die is meaningless.

Which has nothing to do with the issues.

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It obviously has nothing to do with your view on this matter, but it has everything to do with my view on this matter.

The facts are these:
1) God has declared murder against his will.
2) God has willed that people murder.

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What makes something evil? Is it because it goes against God's will or against what someone believes is God's will?

Result -- you have either a schizophrenic, inconsistent God or you have a God with two wills, one of which is subordinate to the other, to a higher purpose.

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I have a God with a purpose and has a reason behind His commands. You evidently have a legalistic schizophrenic God.

Surely as a parent (assuming you are one), you have had to spank your child (or other wise punish him) and you have told him, "I wish I didn't have to do this."

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Does that make me schizophrenic?

Originally posted by Tuor:
As I said before, God has His reasons. Perhaps He doesn't see it as murder, although others would.

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I think God has his reasons, and it clearly fits the definition of murder. I am not talking about your murdering someone. I am making a categorical statement: God condemned murder because it was the stamping out of his image. He also willed murder.

Does one's life really matter? Ours is a battle for salvation. What when we die is meaningless.

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The point is that Uzzah was killed for an action that had a righteous motive. To say that only motives matter is not true.

What makes something evil? Is it because it goes against God's will or against what someone believes is God's will?

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Something is evil when it is disobedient to God or when it does not conform to his character. God condemned as evil those who carried out his decree of murder.

I have a God with a purpose and has a reason behind His commands. You evidently have a legalistic schizophrenic God.

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You have it backwards. You have a God with only one will who wills something against that one will. That doesn't even make sense.

Does that make me schizophrenic?

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Of course not. It simply is an analogy that explains how God can have two wills. His decreed will fulfills his ultiimate purpose. His prescriptive will sometimes bows to his decreed will.

The point is that Uzzah was killed for an action that had a righteous motive. To say that only motives matter is not true.

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Perhaps if one places importance on things other than salvation. If he were to be condemned to hell because of a righteous act, then I'd understand your point of view.

God condemned as evil those who carried out his decree of murder.

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So you are saying they were condemned to hell because they carried out God's commands?

You have a God with only one will who wills something against that one will. That doesn't even make sense.

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No, my God has a plan. That plan included the creation of the nation of Israel so that Jesus could be 'murdered' so that others may live.

As I said, you are being legalistic. There are only two real laws: Love God with your whole heart and Love your neighbors as yourself. If it requires the death of a few to save the world, so be it.

Of course not. It simply is an analogy that explains how God can have two wills. His decreed will fulfills his ultiimate purpose. His prescriptive will sometimes bows to his decreed will.

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From this statement it seems to me that we are arguing over words.

I'm not going to attempt to tell you how I'd define your terms. It seems all that does is create more fighting over words. Suffice it to say that we end up at the same location.

Psalms 7:5  Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.
John 10:15  As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 10:17  Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

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Jesus was not 'murdered'. The scriptures concerning him were fulfilled.

Bro. Dallas

The sensorship on this BBS is a sham!

What do you want censored? The Word of God.

Bro. Dallas

Larry,

I understand and believe that God has two wills. His commands and his sovereign decrees are two different expressions of God's will.

You make the mistake of placing each individual man's salvation under God's will as a sovereign decree but that is inconsistant with Matt. 23:37 and the whole counsel of God's word.

Jesus doesn't say that the reason they are not saved is because God has two wills, it says its because they are unwilling. If Calvinism is true its not because they are unwilling to come, but because God is unwilling to regenerate them.

Plus, God doesn't sovereignly decree that man loves Him with all his heart soul and mind. He commands it, just like he commands man not to murder. Its man's choice to follow that command. If God sovereignly decreed for man to love and worship him it wouldn't be of man's choice and it would mean as much.

Think about it Larry. You have kids don't you. Would it mean as much to you if you had to force your children to hug you? Of course not.

If God wanted a created being to sovereignly decreed to worship and love Him he would have skipped the plan of sin/redemption and just made the rocks cry out. We are different from the rest of his creation in that we have the ability to reason and make volitional choices. Calvinism trys to remove that with the unfounded doctrine of Total depravity.

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Would it mean as much to you if you had to force your children to hug you?

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You are using a strawman argument, Bill. God forces no one. After regeneration, a man comes willingly to Jesus. He is not forced. In his renewed nature, a man comes willingly to Jesus. There is no need for force to be used against him.

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
I still haven't seen a response to this verse:

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At least one thing has been accomplished in this thread - you can't say that anymore, Bill.

You are using a strawman argument, Bill. God forces no one. After regeneration, a man comes willingly to Jesus. He is not forced. In his renewed nature, a man comes willingly to Jesus. There is no need for force to be used against him.

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Is individual human regeneration performed on the individual without the consent of the individual? If yes, then it is forced! It is equivalent to spiritual rape!

Yelsew wrote:

It is equivalent to spiritual rape!

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As a brother in Christ, I would appreciate it, Yelsew, if you would watch your use of hyperbolic language.

From www.crownrights.com/calvinism/four.htm:

This doctrine is often misunderstood and grossly misrepresented by its opponents to render God a tyrannical usurper of the free will of men. As we have seen previously, Arminians invariably view the God of Reformed theology as an arbitrary monster who created some men for the sole purpose of damning them without regard to their actions, and, likewise, forces the rest to submit to Him whether they are willing to do so or not. One critic of Calvinism denounced Irresistible Grace as “spiritual rape” which “overthrows the whole plan of salvation.”(2) The comments of Dr. Norman Geisler, an outspoken Arminian writer, are similar:

If free choices were not considered at all when God made the list of the elect, then irresistible grace on the unwilling follows. Humans would have no say in their salvation. Accordingly, the fact that some (even all) do not choose to love, worship, and serve God will make no difference whatsoever to God. He will simply double-whammy them with his irresistible power and bring them screaming and kicking into his kingdom against their will....

Irresistible grace (?) on the unwilling is a violation of free choice. For true love is persuasive but never coercive. There can be no shotgun weddings in heaven....

Irresistible force used by God on his free creatures would be a violation of both the charity of God and the dignity of humans. God is love. True love never forces itself on anyone. Forced love is rape, and God is not a divine rapist!(3)

With such a mental picture as described above, it is no wonder that the Arminian struggles so vehemently against the doctrine before us. However, Calvinism does not teach that men are dragged “screaming and kicking” into heaven, but that they come willingly: “It is drawing, which denotes not a force upon the will, but a change wrought in the will. A new bias is given to the soul, by which it inclines to God.”(4)

We learn from the Scriptures that God never does anything to violate the will of man. Again, it should be remembered that the will and desires of a man are dictated by his own nature. Men are not forced to sin against their will; they sin, and will continue to do so, because sinfulness is an inherent aspect of their nature. Likewise, God does not force anyone to come to Christ and believe against their will; the elect come because the ruling principle of their inward nature has been transformed from sinfulness to righteousness. Hence, the former reject Christ because they want to (John 5:40), and the latter accept Him because they also want to (Psalm 110:3): “Man’s freedom consists in his being able to act freely in a manner consistent with his will; but fallen man’s will is depraved, and from this depravity he can be rescued only by the grace of God.”(5)

(2) Vance, Other Side, page 307

(3) Dr. Norman Geisler, essay: “God Knows All Things,” in Randall Basinger and David Basinger (editors), Predestination and Free Will (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1986), pages 68-69. The question that immediately comes to mind is, Since when is rape properly defined as “forced love”? Rape is a brutal act of dominance over another man or woman and has nothing at all to do with love. This is why God prescribes the death penalty for the convicted rapist (Deuteronomy 22:25). Geisler’s remark is an insensitive insult to anyone who has been victimized by this terrible crime.

(4) Matthew Henry, Commentary on the Whole Bible (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1961), page 1540.

(5) Calvin, quoted by Vance, Other Side, page 280.


[ May 08, 2003, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: KenH ]

I don't care what total strangers say. It is what you calvinist supporters on this Calvinist/Arminian forum say that I respond to, and it has been posted repeatedly that God regenerates man before man can come to God. That is what my comment is meant to refute.

So, if you don't really believe that regeneration comes before man can respond, then STOP POSTING that it is! If you do really believe that regeneration must occur before man can respond then you must believe that God forces you to believe! And that which is forced upon you is a form of rape.

Yet you scream at us non Calvinists when we point out that little fact to you. So which is it? Please post only your own personal belief!

Hey Yelsew,

I do not believe in re-inventing the wheel. If I have a good quote that states a point better than I can state it, I will use it. What you are trying to do is salvage your lost argument by using semantic tricks. You should simply submit to God's Word and believe the Bible.

I have noticed that whenever we Calvinists bring in the "big guns" who have destroyed the false teachings of Arminians/Pelagians in their writings and sermons that your side is unable to deal with their points but instead go into nonsensical tirades.

But maybe we shouldn't quote from the best that Biblical Calvinism has written and spoken againist your side's false teaching. It is at times like using a cannon against a mosquito.

Originally posted by KenH:
I have noticed that whenever we Calvinists bring in the "big guns" who have destroyed the false teachings of Arminians/Pelagians in their writings and sermons that your side is unable to deal with their points but instead go into nonsensical tirades.

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Basically, what the "big gun" said was this: God doesn't make man do anything, but God does make man make man do something. Yelsew's characterization of God forcing a different will upon man is correct - your "big gun" doesn't refute that. He dances around it.

The fact is that, for regeneration to occur before a person can choose Christ, God must force a certain thing upon man that goes against his depraved nature. He places in him a will that goes against his will.

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
He places in him a will that goes against his will.

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Wrong! God renews man's nature. He doesn't touch man's will. Your side keeps wanting to make this a battle over semantics since you can't win based on Biblical exposition.

But I submit I would rather be "forced against my will", to use the phrase of the anti-Calvinists, to be in Heaven than to have "free will" to be in Hell.

Let's can the references to regeneration as rape. That doesn't further the conversation. It taints it with a perjorative.

It shows a misunderstanding. When you conceive a child with your wife, you are not raping that child, even though you are doing something "against his will" so to speak. It is in reality, in independence of his will. That child didn't desire to be brought into being. That child didn't want to conceived.

When God brings regeneration into a person's life, it is not because of desire. John 1 is clear on this. But that regeneration is not a forcing of anything. It is simply the giving of new life. Regeneration is not against the will of the individual. It has nothing to do with the will.

I was pleased to hear one Calvinist refer to the will of man. Anyone who has not used his will is not in the spiritual life of the church. Faith is not some mysterious working of God that you sit around and wait for hoping that it happens to you or that your name is called.

Faith is a sinners human response to the call of God to His imparted grace. No one comes into the faith because he has waited for God's thunderbolt to strike him. That is why God said, 'Come unto Me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.' Notice the order. We have to come to Him before He can give us spiritual rest through regeneration.

Did God ordain that the Israelites wander in the wilderness for forty years? No. He responded to their will and pleasure. Jesus says through the writer of Hebrews that 'they erred in their heart' and this is what displeased the Lord. Their will from the heart is what made them so long in getting to the promised land. And as we all know many died before the grand entrance. Hebrews 3:11 tells us that they did not enter into rest. The only way we can find permanent rest is by submitting to Jesus rather than waiting for the alleged lightening bolt.

That is why God said, 'Come unto Me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.' Notice the order. We have to come to Him before He can give us spiritual rest through regeneration.

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What causes us to 'come unto God'? Answer that question and you shall have the complete rest in Christ Jesus that Israel could not enter into.

Here is the essence:

it is knowing we are in need of this rest that draws us to God; yet in our depravity we proclaim I need nothing, we bring to the altar of God's judgement with the works of our hands, just as Cain, then when we see it is he who comes by the innocent blood of the substitute alone we become enraged even further.

Go figure.

Bro. Dallas

Regeneration by the Word
1 Pet 1:22. Since by your obedience to the truth you have purified yourselves so that you can experience the genuine love of brothers, love each other intensely from the heart;
23. for your new birth was not from any perishable seed but from imperishable seed, the living and enduring Word of God.
24. For all humanity is grass, and all its beauty like the wild flower's. As grass withers, the flower fades,
25. but the Word of the Lord remains for ever. And this Word is the Good News that has been brought to you.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.