What do 5 point Calvinist have to say about this question?

Those foreknown = those predestinated = those called = those justified = those glorified.

These are not separate groups of people but the same group of people. Therefore, the call of this group of people is always effectual when it takes place by the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

The term is not important. You believe in the doctrine that the term represents and that is my point.

There is no way around teh teaching, no matter what you call it.

"Effectual" has a meaning. It means it accomplishes its intent. It is true that what is effectual on one person is not on another. But in matters of salvation, the Holy Spirit effectually (meaning "with results") calls people so that they respond in belief and repentance. YOu appear to not even know what "effectual" means.

Then you need to study more. I don't think you can even read those and make this claim with a striaght face. I showed very clear instances of places where the call is the separator between belief and unbelief. The teaching of "effectual call" is very clearly described in the Bible. YOu need to change your theology to conform to it.

Did you really read this passage? Follow me here: The order is called ... justified ... glorified. Do you really suggest that someone can be saved with being justified? If yes, than you have bigger problems that the effectual call. If no, then you have been contradicted by Scripture. NOtice that the call (whatever it is) comes before justification (And therefore before salvation) and notice that the call brings justification for all who receive it. You simply cannot deny this passage and still be biblical. The call brings justification. In this passage, there is no one called who does not also get justified.

In addition, consider the rest of the passages that teach the same thing.

All who call on teh name of hte Lord shall be saved. I believe that wholeheartedly. But that is not the point here. The is not a call that someone does, but a call that someone receives. And it is a call that works on every one who receives it.

Once again, your theology has been refuted by Scripture.

 

The sovereignty of God in man's salvation is taught quite explicitly throughout Scripture.I would encourage you to read the following which is a very good explanation of the Scriptural basis for Calvinism - www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/tulip.html.

Here is a portion from the discussion on definite atonement -

There are many Scriptures which say that the death of Christ was designed for the salvation of God's people, not for every individual. For example:

John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep." The sheep of Christ are those whom the Father draws to the Son. "You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep." Notice: being a sheep enables you to become a believer, not vice versa. So the sheep for whom Christ dies are the ones chosen by the Father to give to the Son.

In John 17:6,9,19 Jesus prays, "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me...I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine...And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth." The consecration in view here is the death of Jesus which he is about to undergo. His death and his intercession us uniquely for his disciples, not for the world in general.

John 11:51-52, "[Caiaphas] being high priest that year prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad." There are children of God scattered throughout the world. These are the sheep. These are the ones the Father will draw to the Son. Jesus died to gather these people into one. The point is the same as John 10:15-16, "I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice." Christ died for his sheep, that is, for the children of God.

Revelation 5:9, "Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation." In accordance with John 10:16 John does not say that the death of Christ ransomed all men but that it ransomed men from all the tribes of the world.

This is the way we understand texts like 1 John 2:2 which says, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." This does not mean that Christ died with the intention to appease the wrath of God for every person in the world, but that the "sheep," "the children of God" scattered throughout the whole world, "from every tongue and tribe and people and nation" are intended by the propitiation of Christ. In fact the grammatical parallel between John 11:51-52 and 1 John 2:2 is so close it is difficult to escape the conviction that the same thing is intended by John in both verses.

John 11:51-52, "He prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."

1 John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

The "whole world" refers to the children of God scattered throughout the whole world.

If "the whole world" referred to every individual in the world, we would be forced to say that John is teaching that all people will be saved, which he does not believe (Revelation 14:9-11). The reason we would be forced to say this is that the term propitiation refers to a real removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner.

Propitiated sins cannot be punished. Otherwise propitiation loses its meaning. Therefore if Christ is the propitiation for all the sins of every individual in the world, they cannot be punished, and must be saved. But John does not believe in such universalism (John 5:29). Therefore it is very unlikely that 1 John 2:2 teaches that Jesus is the propitiation of every person in the world.

Mark 10:45, in accord with Revelation 5:9,does not say that Jesus came to ransom all men. It says, "For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Similarly in Matthew 26:28 Jesus says, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." (See also 13:20; Isaiah 53:11-12.)

One of the clearest passages on the intention of the death of Christ is Ephesians 5:25-27. Here Paul not only says that the intended beneficiary of the death of Christ is the Church, but also that the intended effect of the death of Christ is the sanctification and glorification of the church. This is the truth we want very much to preserve: that the cross was not intended to give all men the opportunity to save themselves, but was intended to actually save the church.

Paul says, "Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor."

Similarly in Titus 2:14 Paul describes the purpose of Christ's death like this: "He gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." If Paul were an Arminian would he not have said, "He gave himself to redeem all men from iniquity and purify all men for himself"? But Paul says that the design of the atonement is to purify for Christ a people out from the world. This is just what John said in John 10:15; 11:51f; and Revelation 5:9.

One of the most crucial texts on this issue is Romans 8:32. It is one of the most precious promises for God's people in all the Bible. Paul says, "He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him?"

The crucial thing to see here is how Paul bases the certainty of our inheritance on the death of Christ. He says, "God will most certainly give you all things because he did not spare his own Son but gave him up for you." What becomes of this precious argument if Christ is given for those who do not in fact receive all things but instead are lost? The argument vanishes.

If God gave his own Son for unbelievers who in the end are lost, then he cannot say that the giving of the Son guarantees "all things" for the those for whom he died. But this is what he does say! If God gave his Son for you, then he most certainly will give you all things. The structure of Paul's thought here is simply destroyed by introducing the idea that Christ died for all men in the same way.

 

Agreed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

God's call to repentance is toward all human beings. [Acts 17:30] The Christian faith is corrupted by the concept of "Effectual Call," as though God has a call that affects and regenerates the elect person, while holding forth a purloined call, one that is ineffectual, for those whom He desires to vent His 'hatred', for all eternity. [Romans 9:13--'hatred'] And, of course, I am intentionally, prostituting the meaning of Romans 9:13, by implying that our Lord has a biased number of souls who He wilfully will send to Hell.

 

Do you imagine he will do this reluctantly though they are deserving of it?

Bro. dallas

 

Brother Dallas,

Don't forget it was not only the non-elect sinners who deserved Hell; we who are saved from beings sinners also deserved to go to destruction. What made the difference? The call was given to repentance and with the aid of the Spirit we welcomed Christ into our lives. This is the difference.

 

I would tend to agree with you on your last post Bro. Ray, yet I do not think you mean 'aid' as I would take it to be. If the believers are 'aided' divinely, then what is lacking in those from among whom they were redeemed? Nothing less than this 'divine aid' you speak of no doubt.

Bro. Dallas

 

Brother Dallas,

Both groups of souls, all souls, the non-elect and the elect once they have heard the Gospel are effectually called by God the Holy Spirit. I think you were asking why do some respond to the Gospel and others see, at least for a time, turn from Him.

Every sinner has his favorite sin. I am sure there are a myriad of reasons who people reject the Lord. This is pointed out in the parable of the Sower. Nothing was wrong with the messenger/sower. The quality of the seed was perfect, because it was and is the Word of God. There was nothing wrong with His Word. What was the problem? Sinners have the Adamic nature which insures a rebellious heart toward the Lord God. The soil is depictive of the variety of human hearts in their response to the Sower, Who is Jesus. His seed, the Word of God, was and is effectual. The problem was the response of the sinner to His claims on their lives. Will they open the hearts door to Him or will they keep that heart locked up against His plans for their lives. [Matthew 13:1-8]

 

I believe you believe what you tell me. I haven't denied what you say. I affirmed it. I merely told what the theological term for it is. I merely told you what theologians call what you believe.

The term "universal call" or "general call" are well known theological terms. I would expect taht someone who knows as much as you claim to would readily know what these mean. The universal or general call is the call of God that goes out to all men, calling them to belief and repentance in Jesus Christ. Your posts indicate that you believe that. I believe that. Don't get upset at me becuase it had a name you were unfamiliar with.

I have never changed the meaning of a word. All of those words have meaning in context. (Notice how "all" here doesn't mean "every single word." It has a specific context. I imagine you probably picked that up, which is simple proof that when it comes to these words, we are right and you are wrong.) You are the one who is trying to redefine some of them. They mean what the author intended for them to mean.

I didn't say this and I don't believe you believe it, even though it would be consistent with what you have said you believe.

You appear to not even have interacted with the clear biblical support I gave. We believe that there is a choice to salvation. We don't deny that. You can't even describe your own system without an indepth explanation from man. We have provided ample biblical proof of God's method of working with people. You have simply rejected the text for your own ideas.

My goal wasn't to prove that the term was biblical. My point was that the idea is biblical and that I did prove and you haven't refuted. You have merely ignored Scripture.

No it hasn't. I don't even know what you are talking about here. You are the one who didn't know what the general/universal and effectual call is. That was not my lack of knowledge. You know better.

You can't help me because you don't know what you are talking about. You, who doesn't even know what the universal and effectual call is, can't teach someone who knows more than you do about this topic. My heart is open; I wish your's was.

Answering my posts is useless?? Think about that, really think for a minute. You ask a question about where the teaching of effectual call is found in Scripture. I respond by giving 6 or 8 passages that clearly talk about it. You respond by attacking me and quoting one passage. I respond by talking about that passage. You respond by attacking me once again. I think answering your posts is useless since you don't respond to the Scriptures presented.

I am glad to be helped, but it is clear that you are not able to give any, since you do not even understand the terms that are being used.

 

The term "effectual" is being confused by you. The term "effectual" or "efficacious" means that it works. Look up "effect" in the dictionary as a verb and you will see what it means. Those who do not respond have not been effectually called, no matter what you think of election, because they did not respond.

It is amazing that these terms are so unfamiliar to people with so firm an opinion. How can you not know this stuff??

 

I didn't say that. The word I would use is "uninformed." For someone to lambast effectual call while not even knowing what it means is unthinkable to me. I might give you some slack on this. Ray claims to have a PhD and to have studied at a Calvinist seminary. How can you have a PhD in theology and not know what the effectual call is. You are clearly not stupid. I can tell that by reading your posts. That is why I would say you are uninformed.

PS -- It would be better not to put words in my mouth. If you think I believe something, just ask me. I will tell you. For instance, "Do you think we are stupid?" would be a great way to phrase that.

PSS -- The answer would have been "No." I think you are uninformed.

 

A little pratical theology on whether the unsaved seek God.

"And you hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins." Eph 2:1

The last time I checked - dead people don't do stuff - they're just dead.

Dead people do not seek God until God first calls (seeks) them - and yes, this is the effectual call of the gospel - which will be responded to affirmatively -- not the general call that goes out to all to come to Christ.

 

Dan Todd,

The Spiritually dead are not necessarily mentally dead too! We receive God's word in our mental facility, process it, and if it is believeable to us we can act on what we believe. We can call on God to save us based on our mental ability to receive and process the Gospel Message. God said that His word sent forth does not return void! So it is the Word of God received that ignites the flame of salvation in the spiritually dead.

God equipped us with mental capability to receive His word. He equipped us to be able to reason over the Gospel message. He equipped us with spirit with which to communicate with Him who is spirit. Our spirit is dramatically influenced by our mental capability regarding the word of God, for it is through our mental capability that we learn that we are lost with only one hope of salvation.

The Word of God quickens the spirit of man.

[ May 06, 2003, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

But the Bible tells us that the message does not make sense (i.e., is not believable) to those who are perishing (1 Cor 1:18ff). It is foolishness to them. So yes, you are right; but you are also failing to follow through on the scriptural teaching about this.

Our mental capacities have been affected by sin so that the message is foolishness. Our spirit is dead. The spiritual capacity for belief comes from the setting apart of the Spirit.

It is actually the Spirit that quickens man according to Christ (John 6:63). The Spirit works in conjunction with the word.

 

But you fail to take into account the effect of The Fall in the Garden of Eden. We have already explained to you what happened there.