The Return of Christ

Because Paul did not mention the *timing* of the event as being 7 years prior to Christ's second coming. No one really disputes the event, just the timing.

 

Dr. Bob Griffin,

I am a truly independent fundamental baptist, use KJV all the time,(but I am NOT KJV Onlyist). I was a student attend Midwestern Baptist College which Dr. Tom Malone is the president of that college in Pontiac, MI. I was member at Emmanuel Baptist Church. That time, I was pretrib as student at that college. I thought pretribulational doctrine is a true doctrine. But I didn't realize that doctrine do have lot of problems, because I did not get what the Word of God says. Till one day, I visited to deaf couple's house. They showed me of 2 Thess 2:1-3; and Matt 24:29-31. That's how I left pretrib camp 11 years ago.

I graduated another baptist college in Georgia. I know that college is pretrib, no choice, because that time there was only one deaf bible college(IFB) in America.

I still attend baptist church today. I am a truly baptist, because I agree with baptist's doctrine on salvation and many things with the Bible doctrine. But the only thing that I disagree with baptists on Eschatology doctrine. Yet, Eschatology have do nothing with salvation, you know that.

I am aware that there about about 95% of IFB people are pretrib in America today. That's large percent among IFB people are pretrib!

I cannot understand why, many IFB people saying, "I am a Bible Believer", yet, they did not study Bible enough, and realize pretribulational doctrine have many holes?

In the past centuries, all baptists were NOT pretrib, you know that!

At the beginning of 20th Century, (mostly during 1920's)IFB started to adopt pretribulational doctrine, and start to teach on it at IFB churches even in IFB colleges in around 1920's thank to Clarence Larkin who developed charts book - "Dispensational Truth", include C.I. Scofield too. That why today many IFB churches are teaching on pretrib doctrine.

Which you prefer follow the Bible or man's teaching(Colossians 2:8)?

Please think about it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

I believe we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth:

"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Note that the scriptures don't teach two different comings "in the clouds," and two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52), and two different raptures of the church.

Note that because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, this in no way requires that it be referring to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven, for Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left. He won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. Just as he went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds and "into heaven" (Acts 1:11), so he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4).

Note that the Bible doesn't show the judging or rewarding of any part of the church before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

Note that the time to reward the saints doesn't come until after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15, 18); we will be judged and rewarded at the 2nd coming: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come" (1 Corinthians 4:5); "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:1); "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12).

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged: "Then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:26-27); "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me" (Psalm 50:4-5).

I believe that after we've been judged in the clouds, we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14). Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16).

Do you get the phrase "left behind" from: "So shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matthew 24:39-40)?

If so, note that there Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

In the pre-trib view, how will "one taken, one left" be a secret pre-trib rapture and not an event at the revelation of Jesus, when "even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed... Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Luke 17:30, 36)?

I believe that the ones "taken" at the 2nd coming are unbelievers who are killed, just as Noah's flood "took" evil men away (Matthew 24:39-40), and that the carcasses of the ones "taken" are eaten by eagles and other birds (Luke 17:36-37, Job 39:30, Matthew 24:28, Revelation 19:21).

I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40, Zechariah 14:16) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.

The ones "gathered together" at Jesus' 2nd coming are his elect (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31). So I believe Christians won't be the ones "taken" or the ones "left," but the ones "gathered together."

Note that no scripture promises anyone a rapture before the tribulation.

I don't believe that the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any moment, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul says that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), and that Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

I believe that Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31, which says all these will occur "after the tribulation." I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

http://geocities.com/postrib

 

The 2nd Coming of Christ?
UNKNOWN

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Did you know that the phrase ”the second coming of Christ” does not appear anywhere in scripture? Nor the phrase “second coming”? Does this surprise you?

Notice in the above title, we did not spell out the word “second,” but used “2nd” instead. This is because numbers are fictions in numerical form and have no substance. And the “second” coming of Christ is also a fiction according to Scripture, which has has no substance. It is born and bred from the doctrines of man, not from the Holy Scripture.

Additionally, you will not find the “idea” of a physical “second coming” of Christ, or the literal “return of Christ,” taught anywhere in scripture. When searching out the truth given to us in Scripture, we must use Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Some of the phrases construed to denote His "return" that are used in the New Testament books are:

· "the coming of the Lord,"

· "the day of the Lord,"

· "the sign of Thy coming,"

· "the day of Christ is at hand,"

· "the Son of man coming in the clouds,"

and other similar expressions. All of these phrases refer to the same event. To understand what event these phrases refer to, we must go to Scripture, and not to the pre-conceived ideas and teachings of "theological" philosophy and "end times" merchandisers.

The apostles and Jews of the first century clearly understood what the above phrases meant, because they read it many times in the Old Testament books. These phrases were very common in the Old Testament books. Such language was used many times in the past whenever God would overthrow and destroy a single nation at a specific time. While reading the following examples from the Old Testament books, notice how similar these phrases are to the same expressions used in the New Testament books.

The Lord's Coming in the Old Testament

In scripture, “the day of the Lord” has never referred to a physical, literal return of the Lord. “The day of the Lord” has always referred to the Lord's judgment upon either a city or nation of people. It refers to a destruction from God Almighty:

"Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come" (Joel 1:15).

It refers to the destruction upon the heathen:

"For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen" (Obadiah 1:15).

It refers to the anger of God upon a nation not desired by Him:

"Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired…before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD…it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger" (Zephaniah 2:1-3).

The following are some examples of “the day of the Lord” and “the Lord riding on a swift cloud and shall come” being fulfilled upon many people throughout scriptural history:

Jeremiah 46:2,10, "Against Egypt…For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates."

This was referring to the destruction of the Egyptians, and this was fulfilled when Pharaohnechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates (see 2 Kings 23:29).

Isaiah 19:1, "The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt"

This was referring to the destruction of Egypt, and this was fulfilled in 480 BC.

Ezekiel 30:3-4, "For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day…And the sword shall come upon Egypt "

This was also referring to the destruction of Egypt, and this was fulfilled in 480 BC.

Isaiah 13:1,6-9 – “The burden of Babylon…the day of the LORD is at hand…the day of the LORD cometh.”

This was referring to the destruction of Babylon, and this was fulfilled in 539 BC.

Zephaniah 1:4,7,14-15 "I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem…for the day of the LORD is at hand: …The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD:…That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness."

This was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, and this was fulfilled in 586 BC.

Amos 5:18-20, "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD!…the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light…Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?"

Note that it is "Woe unto them" that desire the day of the LORD. This was referring to the destruction of Israel, and this was fulfilled in 722 BC.

Since only Scripture can interpret Scripture, when we read of "the day of the Lord" in the New Testament books, it can only refer to God's judgment upon a nation of people. Specifically, in the New Testament, it refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred in 70 A.D. We shall now examine just one of the many passages which clearly show this.

The Lord's Coming in the New Testament

Matthew 24, commonly known as “the Olivet discourse,” is our Lord's prophecies regarding His so-called “second coming.” Verse 3 is the most important verse in this whole chapter, because the entirety of Matthew 24 is in response to this specific question asked in verse 3 by the apostles. If you don't understand their question, you will never understand Jesus' answer. We must be sure we understand the question first.

Matthew 24:3, "...And what is the sign of thy coming…”

The Greek word for “coming” is “parousia.” This Greek word means “arrival or presence,” not “return.” It is never translated as “return” in the entire bible. It didn't refer to any future return of Christ. To the disciples, the "parousia" signified the destruction of Jerusalem, just as it referred to the destruction of a city in the scriptures of their time. Let's now look at the context of Matthew 24. Throughout Matthew's gospel, Jesus continually warned the Jews of their coming judgment because of their apostasy.

Matthew 21:43 "Because of this I say to you, that the kingdom of God will be taken from you and it shall be given to a nation bearing the fruits of it."

Matthew 22:7 "And having heard it the king was wroth, and having sent out his armies, he destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."

It is clear that the reference here is to the city of Jerusalem's destruction, which happen upon that generation in AD 70. Jesus continues to warn them of a coming judgment because of their rejection of the Messiah (please read Matthew 23:23-39 in your bible).

Matthew 23:36-38, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who killest the prophets and stoneth those who have been sent to her!…Behold, your house is left to you desolate."

All word studies and commentaries agree that the word "house" (#3624) refers to Jerusalem and the temple. Now, with this in mind, we move into chapter 24 and the Olivet discourse of Jesus (this is a continuation of what was said in Matthew 23). In verse 1, as the apostles depart from the Temple, the words of Jesus to the Pharasees, "Your house is left to you desolate," still burned in their ears. In verse 2, Jesus prophesied that "these things," (the whole temple) would be utterly destroyed in an act of God's judgment. And in verse 3:

Matthew 24:3, "Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of thy coming, and of the completion of the age?"

The Mount of Olives was just east of Jerusalem across the Kidron Valley. It is about a mile in length and about 700 feet in height, and overlooks Jerusalem, so that from its summit almost every part of the city could be seen. It was from Jerusalem about a Sabbath day's journey (Acts 1:12). A Sabbath day's journey was as far as the law allowed (not the law of Moses, but that advanced by the Jewish teachers) one to travel on the Sabbath. This was 2,000 paces or cubits, which would be not quite one mile.

This walk, uphill with sandals, would have taken them maybe 15-30 minutes. During this time they were no doubt thinking about what Jesus had just said about the destruction of the temple and how their house would be left desolate. Once Jesus sat down on the mountain, the disciples approached him and questioned him about the temple's destruction. According to Mark 13:3, the questions were asked by Peter, James, John, and Andrew. And according to Matthew and Mark, they came "privately" to Jesus. Their question was two-fold. First they ask, "when will these things be?" All three of the synoptic gospels ask, "when."

Matthew 24:3, "Tell us, when shall these things be?..."
Mark 13:4, "Tell us, when shall these things be?..."
Luke 21:7, "So they asked Him, saying, Teacher, but when shall these things be?..."

The "these things" refer to the temple's destruction in verse 2 (Matthew 24). In verse 1 the disciples point out the temple buildings to Jesus. In verse 2, Jesus says, "All these things shall be destroyed." It should be clear that they are asking, "When will the temple be destroyed? When will our house be left desolate?" After all, Jesus had just talked about judgment on Jerusalem, and then about not one stone not being left upon another, the disciples' response is, "When?" That makes sense, doesn't it? I would hope so. It is the second part of their question where things get sticky.

The second part of their question is, "What shall be the sign of thy coming and the completion of the age?" To help us understand the question, we need to compare all three synoptic gospels, comparing scripture with scripture.

Matthew 24:3, "...And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the completion of the age?"
Mark 13:4, "...And what shall be the sign when all these things should be fulfilled?"
Luke 21:7, "...And what sign shall there be when these things are about to take place?"

Comparing all three accounts shows us that the disciples considered "thy coming" and "the completion of the age" (the old covenant age) to be identical events with "these things." Remember, "these things." referred to the destruction of the temple.

Mark 13:4, "Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when all these things should be fulfilled?"

Notice in the first part of the verse they say, "When shall these things be?" -- referring to the temples' destruction. Then in the second half, they ask, "What shall be the sign when all these things should be fulfilled?" The sign of His coming and the end of age was the same as the "these things," which referred to the destruction of Jerusalem in the year AD 70. These are not separate questions that can be divided up into different time-events. The disciples had one thing, and only one thing, on their mind and that was the destruction of the temple. With the destruction of the temple, they understood that the coming of the Lord and the end of the old covenant age was determined by when that event occurred.

Notice that the disciples did not ask about the dissolution of the physical heaven and earth or the judgment of the "world" (kosmos), but about the end of the "age" (aion). The Disciples asked Jesus when the temple would be torn down. They could not possible have been asking Jesus about his physical second coming, because of these three undisputed facts:

Fact #1:
The Disciples did not understand that Jesus was going to die the first time (John 12:34; 16:16-18; 20:9, Mark 9:10,31-32, Luke 9:44-45; 18:31-34). And if the apostles had no idea that Jesus would physically leave them, why would they ask him about his physical return? Return from what? Therefore, the disciples could not have been asking about a future return of Christ, because they had no idea that he was leaving!

Fact #2:
The disciples believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah (Matthew 16:15-16). The people living in the first century believed that Messiah would come and rule physically, having no idea of Him coming, then leaving, then coming again (John 12:34). The disciples expected Jesus to be their physical King and set up a worldly Kingdom at his first coming (John 6:15, Luke 19:11; 24:21), not at his “second coming.” Even after the crucifixion, they still had no concept about his “second coming,” because they still thought he was going to give them the Kingdom at that time (Acts 1:6).

Fact #3:
Jesus talked to them about his death and going to the Father, but the apostles did not understand it at all (Matthew 16:21-22, Mark 8:31-32; 9:31-32, Luke 9:44-45; 18:31-34, John 13:33-14:6; 16:16-18). This account in John takes place after he had given them the Olivet discourse and they still didn't understand that He was leaving them. The disciples could not grasp that Jesus was going to die, and be resurrected from the dead, and acsend to the Father! Even after the crucifixion, they still didn't understand that Jesus was going to rise from the dead (John 20:8-9). If they did not understand that Jesus was going to return (from the dead) the first time, how they have any concept that Jesus was going to return (from heaven) a second time?

If the disciples had no idea that Jesus was going to leave them, how could they ask Him about His return? The disciples could not have asked a question about something they knew nothing about! They didn't understand anything about a second coming. The fact is, the disciples believed “the coming of the Lord” or “the day of the Lord” would be the coming judgment upon, and the destruction of, Jerusalem and the Temple. This is the same meaning (destruction of nation) as used throughout the old testament scripture.

Did Jesus answer the apostles question as to when the temple would be destroyed, and when “these things” would be fulfilled? Yes, he did! He answered it twice in the same conversation:

Matthew 23:36, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Matthew 24:34, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Yes, Jesus said "these things" (the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple) would happen within the generation of the people then living. Do you believe Jesus was a false prophet? Does this question shock you? The futurist position denies the fulfillment of the prophesies of Jesus. Because of the time statements connected with these prophesies, if the prophesies had not come true then He would be a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 18:22. These prophesies are not specific as to the day or the hour, but they do give a definite generational time-frame. And, sure enough, God's Word is true, and it did happen just when Jesus said it would happen, within 40 years (a generation) of Jesus making these prophesies! It happened in 70 A.D.

For further study, you may want to read Matthew 16:27-28, because in this passage, Jesus said that some of His disciples, who were standing right there in front of Him, would not die until they have seen the Son of man coming in His kingdom. And the apostle John is one of these apostles who lived to see the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

And one last point to consider. The apostles wrote in scripture that they expected Christ's coming to happen within their own lifetime. This fact is indisputable, and easily proven from scripture. Those who believe the "second coming" of Christ is still future must also believe that the apostles were wrong. Why? Because "all scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16). The apostles did not write their opinions, but they wrote "as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21). If the apostles were wrong, one cannot avoid the conclusion that scripture is wrong. And if scripture is wrong, and Jesus did not come in His kingdom when he said He would, that means the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and all the apostles were either wrong, or they lied (Numbers 23:19).

So, we have a choice. We must believe that the Word of God is Truth and Jesus came when He said He would, or we must believe the teachings of men's philosophy is truth and Jesus will physically return sometime in the future. Both cannot be true. And if scripture is wrong about the timing of Christ's coming, what other parts of scripture are wrong and untrue?

"Futurists" make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made – they were not satisfied with a spiritual kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical kingdom. That's why they rejected Christ's "first coming." We hope and pray that you do not make the same mistake about his so-called "second coming" and reject the fulfillment of the coming of His Kingdom that came in 70 A.D. Glory be to God, His Kingdom is here now! If not, what kingdom is He the King of kings of?

 

Grasshopper, I am surprised at how you use those passages about the Lord coming in judgment the same way in both the Old and New Testaments. Do you not know that the O.T. is full of types? In the O.T. the Lord came in judgment by using other peoples (mainly and almost exclusively pagan, lost cultures). However, in the N.T. (the fulfillment), he will come himself in the same manner in which he left according to the angels (bodily, visibly, personally), to destroy the wicked.

I don't like it when you twist words to stop meaning what they were originally intended to mean.

 

(bodily, visibly, personally

Scriptures please. Let me see bodily,visible and personally in those verses so I'll know that YOU are not twisting them.

 

Still looking Gunther?

 

Good try Dr. Bob. I dont see physically, bodily, or visibly in that verse but I do see clouds. Coming in the clouds is a common occurence in the Old Testament.

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Isaiah 19

1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

 

The "these things" refer to the temple's destruction in verse 2 (Matthew 24). In verse 1 the disciples point out the temple buildings to Jesus. In verse 2, Jesus says, "All these things shall be destroyed."

Since you admit that "all these things" refer to the destruction of the temple, in verse 34 when Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass till ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled," how do you know that He is not referring solely to the temple and its destruction to be fulfilled in that generation and not the Parousia? As a matter of fact, that is how the early church fathers interpreted the passage.

 

IN LIKE MANNER???
He left in the clouds, He will return in the clouds. The 1st century Jews would have been very familiar with this term.

 

The "these things" refer to the temple's destruction in verse 2 (Matthew 24). In verse 1 the disciples point out the temple buildings to Jesus. In verse 2, Jesus says, "All these things shall be destroyed."Since you admit that "all these things" refer to the destruction of the temple, in verse 34 when Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass till ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled," how do you know that He is not referring solely to the temple and its destruction to be fulfilled in that generation and not the Parousia? As a matter of fact, that is how the early church fathers interpreted the passage.

Look at Mark's account:

Mark 13

1 And as he went forth out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Teacher, behold, what manner of stones and what manner of buildings!
2 And Jesus said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left here one stone upon another, which shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when these things are all about to be accomplished?
5 And Jesus began to say unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.
6 Many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and shall lead many astray.
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled: these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be earthquakes in divers places; there shall be famines: these things are the beginning of travail.
9 But take ye heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in synagogues shall ye be beaten; and before governors and kings shall ye stand for my sake, for a testimony unto them.
10 And the gospel must first be preached unto all the nations.
11 And when they lead you to judgment, and deliver you up, be not anxious beforehand what ye shall speak: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.
12 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child; and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
15 and let him that is on the housetop not go down, nor enter in, to take anything out his house:
16 and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloak.
17 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that it be not in the winter.
19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
20 And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect's sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ; or, Lo, there; believe it not:
22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have told you all things beforehand.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;
29 even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished.

vs. 30 says all these things. I assume it is the things in the previous verses.

vs. 14. abomination of desolation

vs. 19 tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.

vs. 24. after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

vs. 25 stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.

vs. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.


vs. 27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Put matthew, mark and luke's account together and get the whole picture.

 

grasshopper,

Your post of Matthew 24 sounds like preterism to me. You believe ALL of things were fulfilled in year 70 A.D.?

 

Yes, I heard a partial-preterist do a series on eschatology. It was my first exposure to any thing other than Pre-Mill Disp. I started looking into it with a very skeptical eye, after all how could what I believed and was taught for almost 40 years be wrong. But the more I studied it the more and more sense it made and the more my old way of believing started to collapse. To make a long story short, I eventually found my way to full-preterism because it was the most consistant view to me. I don't have all the answers to my questions but I am comfortable with where I am at.

 

Rev. 19:11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteous he doth judge and make war.

Did Jesus ascend on a horse?

Or do you believe in a third coming?

 

Ive been taught that He came "into me" when I was born again. symbolized in the idea of baptism. baptised into his death raised with him in glory and eternal life.

Christ has already come back to those who are "born again" with the spirit of Christ that is "within them".

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

of should I look for another?

Is He in me, or am I still waiting for him to Come?

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