The Return of Christ

Did Jesus ascend physically? Yes
Did Jesus ascend bodily? Yes
Did Jesus ascend literally? Yes

Will Jesus return physically? No
Will Jesus return bodily? No
Will Jesus return literally? No


Now, a question for you. Did the Kingdom come in the 1st. Century?

 

Yes. Now, will you stop trying to tell people you understand premillenialism?

Revised dispensationalism
Progressive dispensationalism
Historic/Classic premillenialism
Mid-trib premillenialism
Pre-wrath premillenialism
and some forms of Classic dispensationalism

all recognize that the kingdom started in the 1st century.

Do you have any questions that relate to the issue that do NOT hyperimpose false beliefs on the other side?

 

Now Im getting confused.

Christ says he is in me. now, today.

yet you guys says He's coming Back someday



Where is Jesus Christ Now ?.

In the born again believers body, or Not?

 

grasshopper,


You deny God's Word tellng us, that Christ shall come again in physicaly ad lierally at thesecond advent- future.

Obivously, you are a full preterist. I stong disagree with peterism doctrine.

Matt 24:30 and Rev. 1:7 telling us, EVERY eye on earth shall SEE Christ coming with glory and power. Yes, his coming will be visibly and physcally too.

All things shall not be fulfilled till AFTER sun, moon, and stars became darkened - Matt 24:34. These are not yet happened in 70 A.D.

I do not see where is Jesus Christ on earth. Obivously, He is still up in the heavn sitting on the throne right now.


In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Deafposttrib,

then by your response to not seeing Jesus on earth you would interpret this

1) When Jesus came in his own human body
or
2) When someone is said to be "born again", and states that they believe they have received the spirit of Christ within their own flesh?

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Me2

 

all recognize that the kingdom started in the 1st century.

Good, I'm glad you speak for all Dispys. Although I can quote from others who say the Kingdom was postponed because of the Jews rejection. But you seem confident in your view so I will let you speak for all of them.

Now if the Kingdom has come, then so has everything associated with its coming.

Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

So the judgement and second coming are associated with the coming of the Kingdom. And of course vs. 28 tells us when, but you already knew that. There are other verses that tie the Judgement, Resurrection and Second Coming to the Kingdom, but I won't bore you with scriptures.

You deny God's Word tellng us, that Christ shall come again in physicaly ad lierally at thesecond advent- future.

I don't deny it God's word seems to. Show me where the word "physical" is used in reference to His coming. You all keep saying that but I see no Physical return in scripture. Although I too fell into that trap in the past.What I do see are many examples of "comings" in the Old Testament. Do you think the disciples were familiar with the OT? Do you think they understood the figurative language of the OT?

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Ps. 18: 9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; And thick darkness was under his feet.
10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly; Yea, he soared upon the wings of the wind.

Micah 1: 3 For, behold, Jehovah cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

Ex. 3: 8 and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians,

I believe this is what God had in mind for the 1st century Jews.

Matt 24:30 and Rev. 1:7 telling us, EVERY eye on earth shall SEE Christ coming with glory and power.

Does eye represent sight or understanding?

Rom. 11: 7 What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:8 according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.

You see?

All things shall not be fulfilled till AFTER sun, moon, and stars became darkened - Matt 24:34. These are not yet happened in 70 A.D.

That is exactly what happened in 70AD. But first you must understand that sun, moon and stars represent governments and peoples(kings/leaders). Back to the OT.

Judgement on Egypt
Ez.32:7 And when I shall extinguish thee, I will cover the heavens, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord Jehovah.

Fall of Babylon
Is. 13: 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.

Future? nope look at vs. 17:
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not regard silver, and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

God used the Medes to destroy Babylon, just like He used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple(Old Covenant).

I do not see where is Jesus Christ on earth.


Why are you looking for Him here?

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Now Gunther, who also speaks for you, says the Kingdom is here already. We agree. So why do you look for the physical?

Now are we still under the Law? If you say no, then you must believe that heaven and earth have passed away. Do you?

Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

He is still up in the heavn sitting on the throne right now.

And that is where I am heading now!

 

Found this quote by Daniel Harden:

‘Apocalyptic Cosmic Imagery ’ - The pictorial usage of heavenly objects in Biblical prophecy to indicate the cataclysmic state of national governments, leaders or prominent persons as a result of a major covenantal event. This includes the rising and falling of the sun, the moon, and the stars. One of the earliest (and simplest) examples can be found in Gen 37:9 and its fulfillment in Gen 42:6-9, when Joseph dreamed about his star ascending above his brothers' stars. Isaiah's prophecies use this technique more than any other prophet, but it is used throughout the Old Testament.

 

grasshopper,

you say,

Remember, that Joseph's vision is only symbol or figurative meaning that was fulfilled in his lifetime when his 11 brothers came to Egypt to worship at Joseph, 11 brothers represent stars, Joseph represent sun according what his vision prophecy comes true fulfilled years later when his brothers came to Egypt to face Joseph as governor. That vision do NOTHING with the second advent and the day of the Lord either.

You have to read Joel 2:30-31; and 3:14-15 also, Acts 2:20 too. Matt 24:29 will be literally fulfilled at the second adevent, the world shall see the comsmic disturbance up in the sky because of the signs that they shall see Christ coming with power and glory. His coming shall not be a secert, it will be visibly return, that EVERY one of the earth shall SEE Christ coming in the air with power and glory - Matt 24:30 & Rev. 1:7.

Acts 1:9-11 tell us, when Jesus ascend up into the clouds, the two angels appeared to them, the angels told them, Jesus shall come again in the SAME WAY as he went up.

That is visibly return of Christ, it will not be a secert coming, it will be visibly coming.

Does, Jesus saying that they shall see governors and leaders fall of Matt 24:29? No. Jesus told them they shall see up in the sky with the signs because Christ will be appear second time IN THE SKY! Why can't you accept Matt 24:29-30 explain so very simple?

Indians in the North America do not see Jesus appear in the sky in year 70 A.D., because they are about 2,500 miles away from Israel. Impossible for them to see Jesus appears.

Jesus didn't come in year 70 A.D. Jesus is still up in the heaven sitting on the throne right now since around 33 A.D. to now.

LOOOOK..... at the world condition is increasing worser right now. Obivously, Satan is still here, and wicked is still here right now. Jesus is not yet arrive n earth now. When Jesus shall come, he will put all wicked things away completely at the second advent.

You have to accept what the Bible telling us, that Jesus is coming again in visible and physically. Because the Bible tells us so.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Here are descriptions of PAST events. Not future, PAST :

Fall of Israel
Amos 8: 8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? yea, it shall rise up wholly like the River; and it shall be troubled and sink again, like the River of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord Jehovah, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.

Judgement on Egypt
Ez.32:7 And when I shall extinguish thee, I will cover the heavens, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord Jehovah.

Fall of Babylon brought on by the Medes(vs.17)
Is. 13: 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.

So if they are literal, we are not here because the universe was destroyed a few centuries ago.

Why do we take these verses as symbolic in the OT, yet insist they are literal in the NT?

I repeat,Does eye represent sight or understanding?

Rom. 11: 7 What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:8 according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.

Joel 2

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be saved;

When could one call upon the name of the Lord and be saved? still future?

Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.16 And Jehovah will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but Jehovah will be a refuge unto his people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel.17 So shall ye know that I am Jehovah your God, dwelling in Zion my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Fulfilled?

Eph.2
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.

vs.19 So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,

Who is the heaven and earth?

Isaiah 1

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth; for Jehovah hath spoken: I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

vs. 16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and have covered thee in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Heaven and earth represent the Old Covenant, Old Israel, andd her people.

Why will it be destroyed?

Isaiah 24

1 Behold, Jehovah maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

5 The earth also is polluted under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are found guilty: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Notice these verses dealing with the removal of the Old Covenant.

Is 51: 6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment;

Ps.102: 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure; Yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; As a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

Heb 1: 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Matt. 9: 16 And no man putteth a piece of undressed cloth upon an old garment; for that which should fill it up taketh from the garment, and a worse rent is made.
17 Neither do men put new wine into old wine-skins: else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins, and both are preserved.

That old garment is the Old Covenant.

Heb 8: 13 In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

You quote Acts 2 as some future event. Yet Acts 2 is a fulfilled prophecy:

Acts 2: 16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:

That which Joel spoke of was fulfilled in those "last days". When were the "last days"?

Hebrews 1

2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

Jesus appeared in the last days. Last Days of what? Last Days of the Old Covenant.

LOOOOK..... at the world condition is increasing worser right now.

Read about the "Dark Ages" and then tell me how terrible things are now.

I choose to use the Old Testament to help me interpret the New Testament. The NT was written to Jews who read the OT daily in the synogogues. They would have been very familiar with this language and would have understood its meaning.

Matt. 24: 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


The Old Covenant would pass away, but the New would last forever.