Choice Or Grace?

Artimaeus,

you say,

2 Peter 3:9 tells us, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE."

It tells us, the Lord is NOT want all of people go to hell, but He wants ALL come to repent, that is God's Will for EVERYONE to become saved, not just for only limited elect people, also WHOLE world, that Christ died on the cross for the whole world.

you say,

2 Cor. 6:2 - "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, NOW is accepted time; behold NOW is the day of salvation.)"

It tells us, person should NOT wait for God to action to draw person to become saved. It tells us, a person should accept and believe the gospel NOW, not wait later. That is God's Will for everyone to believe and repent ask Jesus to became saved, not wait later. God does not make us puppet or robot. God gives us freewill to make decision.

Hebrews 2:3 - "HOW shall we escape, if we NEGLECT SO GREAT SALVATION; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that HEARD him;"

It tells us, HOW can we escapse while we reject or neglect the gospel of so GREAT SALVATION?!

GOd wants everyone to repent and believe in Christ to became saved.

Why? In James 4:14 - "Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow(tomorrow or next day). For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for A LIITLE TIME and then VANISHETH AWAY."

It tells us, that our life is so VERY SHORT TIME, no matter how long we live up to 30 or 40, or 70, or 100 years, still it is very short time. Because once after death, then eternality life begins!(Afterdeath life) - heaven or hell.

Never know what if you die tonight, tomorrow by car accident or shot,(same as idea of Sept 11 - plane crashed WTC very quickly without expect killed employees same time!)

A person CANNOT afford to wait for God to action to draw person to became saved. A person must make decision to repent and accept Christ before TOO LATE.

Romans 10:14 - "HOW then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and HOW shall they believe in him of whom they have NOT heard? and HOW shall they hear WITHOUT A PREACHER?"

It tells us, HOW can a person to became saved WITHOUT hear a gospel from a Christian??? Millions of souls already in hell without hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ commands us GO and preach the gospel to EVERY person in the world to become saved - Matt 28:19-20, and Mark 16:15.

We do not let God to make decision to elect person go to heaven or hell. That is not biblical.

2 Peter 3:9 tells us, that God does NOT want all people go to hell. He desires all people to repent. That is God's will for everyone to become saved.

That why God wants every Christians go to witness gospel to all people need to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ to became saved, that is God's command.

Bible proves us that we all have freewill to make decision. God does not make us as puppet or robot. God gives us to have a freewill to make decision.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

DeafPostTrib

I think Artimaeus was being facetious.

 

Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:10 NIV

Peter doesn't seem to have the same view of election as you or Calvin. Peter says in these verses that election is not a done deal, rather that we need to make our calling and election sure. He must not have believed in the perseverance of the saints either because he says IF we do our part we will be welcomed into the eternal kingdom of our Lord.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Tim,

I agree!!!

 

First of all it's a choice and it's grace. Everyone is born with an ability to chose. I know many that reject Christ when I wittness to them. I'd say that's exercising choice, wouldn't you?
But it's also of grace. When we come to Christ in repentance for salvation, because we can not be saved by works, God does it by grace and declairs us rightious.
Jesus died for ALL. Everyone that ever lived and ever will live. Point blank. Take it or leave it, but that's just something that's an absolute. But just because He died for all dosn't mean all will be saved. As we know, there are people and pleanty of them in hell because the didn't get saved.
And to think He only died for some well, that just isn't right! He was a perfect sacrifice and paid the final price for our souls. He tasted death for us! But it's up to a person wheither or not they accept it. God's not willin any should perish, but people make that choice all the time. To say His death didn't pay for all is to say it wasn't complete and to disregard Bible truth. He loved the world {mankind} and died for it all. And of course if His sacrifice wasn't complete, how could any be saved?
I'm saved, and don't doubt it in the least, but there are plenty who are better equiped to serve Him and they aren't saved. So many have more talent and ability than me, but God saved me when I came to Him in repentance. Now I have to ask, WHY ME!?
Now we also know God is omnicient. He knew from the beginning who would accept the gift of salvation and who wouldn't. But to take it to the extent and say "Well God dosn't want you, you aren't elect." would be insanely crazy, cause that could have been said of me, but yet He did save me.
You CAN reject a free gift by the way. And people do for many reasons. "Aww, I ain't good enough.", or "I can do it myself.", or "He won't really give it to me." and so forth. If I offered you a hundred dollors some might say "no thanks." {Granted a lot of you would say "HAND IT OVER!"}
Same thing. God offered eternal hope, and sweet peace, and a perfect Saviour to ALL, and some said "No thanks." Does that mean He didn't die for them? Well NO! It just means they rejected the gift He gave.
I do have a question though. Are some of you posting Calvanists? I don't know much about the theology of it, but some of what has been said seems kinda like it to me.
~Miss Abby
Proverbs 31:30

 

First, you didn't address the issue I had raised, which was that scripture says whoever does not believe is already condemned.

But to address the new one you raised, part of the problem is that you removed the verse from its context. Peter is exhorting the reader (emphasis mine), "giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love."

That should give you the important clue as to the meaning of making one's election sure, or perhaps better paraphrased, becoming more firmly established in one's election.

But perhaps there's a better way to illustrate that the verse cannot mean what you have interpreted it to mean. Let me ask you this. Who does the calling? Who elects? It is God who calls, and God who elects. And what does it mean to elect? It means to choose -- and God is doing the choosing, not man. The elect are the chosen, not the choosers.

More important, how can one possibly strive through perserverence, virtue, knowledge, etc., to make sure God chooses/elects you unto salvation? You can't do that without taking away grace and turning salvation into works. We are elected unto good works, we don't do good works to become elected. Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Therefore the verse must mean something other than what you suggest, because your meaning would directly contradict an abundance of scripture to the contrary. You may not accept my interpretation, but at the very least seek one that harmonizes with other scripture.

As for perserverence, it says "rich welcome". What does that mean? It says "an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly" in the NIV, for example. This is a matter of degree, not whether you enter the kingdom or are turned away.

 

I spend a good deal of time looking over the board and once in a while put in a little remark.Its strange that it seems no one ever gives in or changes their opinion on whatever subject debated.
A sunday school teacher once told our class "I cannot teach you a thing if you come to class with preconcieved idea ". I think that might apply here.
According to God's word the Holy Spirit illuminates and shows us truth.Its strange both sides of the debate here claim to be Spirit led,I wonder which side is of God.
Just thinking out loud again ER

 

There is no disagrement here. Those who don't believe are all condemned. Their condemnation has to do with their current unbelief. At death or Christ's appearing if they are still unbelieving they receive the condemnation that is the punishment for their unbelief. If we continue in belief we receive the reward for our belief eternal life. Eternal life is not a reality for us until death or Christ's appearing neither is condemnation a reality for the unbeliever until death or Christ's return.

There is no denying the Biblical presentation of God choosing and electing unto salvation. But I am sure the current popular interpretation of election is not the Biblical one. How ever you want to say it, “being firmly established” or “making you calling and election sure” does not change the fact that Peter is NOT presenting election as a it is today as a unchangeable done deal.

I am not suggesting that anyone by their good works are chosen by God to become one of the elect. However, I am suggesting that after one becomes one of the elect (however that works) that they have a responsibility to continue and abide in Jesus. John 15:1-13

It actually says "a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. " Therefore it has everything to do with salvation. Rich welcome just describes the kind of welcome we will receive.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I am not in Heaven right now, no, but, the eternal life that I have IS a reality right now. The unbeliever IS CONDEMNED, in reality, right now.

 

You are quoting exclusively from John. Here is what John defines as eternal life.

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3 NIV

This is certainly a reality in the life of the believer. Through their relationship with Jesus Christ they are reconciled with God. However we don't possess the reward of eternal life in the sense of life eternal until we cross the threshold of death or until Christ returns and brings it with Him. Furthermore, we only possess it then if we have endured until the end.

"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields--and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. Mark 10:29-30 NIV

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. Romans 2:6-8 NIV

The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Galatians 6:8-9 NIV

Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Jude 1:21 NIV

As you can see from these verses eternal life in the sense of living forever with God is something we have coming to us as a reward for our faithfulness. Eternal condemnation is coming to those who reject God through disobedience and unbelief.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

It sounds like a reality before death to me (emphasis mine):

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die..."

No, you're saying that after you're elect, you have to work to stay elect.

Well, I'm not sure I'd put it that way, since apart from Jesus we can do nothing. But my biggest difference of opinion is with what you left unwritten but, as far as I can tell, is implied. "they have a responsibility to continue and abide in Jesus or else they'll lose their salvation." If that's what you meant, it is unbiblical.

We're saying the same thing here. The difference is akin to "welcome, beloved" vs "well done, good and faithful servant". That's the point of the passage, to exhort believers to go after the rich welcome.

 

It sounds like a reality before death to me (emphasis mine):

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die..."</font>[/QUOTE]I have already shown that in John's gospel he defines eternal life as, "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3 NIV Therefore if life is knowing God and His Son, then death is not knowing them.

Here the other verses again. Please explain to me how you can make these verses say that eternal life is something that we possess now. No one is denying that we possess it in the sense that John is presenting.

"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields--and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. Mark 10:29-30 NIV

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. Romans 2:6-8 NIV

The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Galatians 6:8-9 NIV

Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Jude 1:21 NIV

No, you're saying that after you're elect, you have to work to stay elect. </font>[/QUOTE]I am suprised that you have resorted to that tired tactic already. I didn't say it, Jesus did. See the verses below. If you don't abide you are unfruitful. If you are unfruitful you are cut off. If you are cut off you wither and you are gathered and burned.

Well, I'm not sure I'd put it that way, since apart from Jesus we can do nothing. But my biggest difference of opinion is with what you left unwritten but, as far as I can tell, is implied. "they have a responsibility to continue and abide in Jesus or else they'll lose their salvation." If that's what you meant, it is unbiblical. </font>[/QUOTE]Here are the verses. I am sorry it is not implied and it is biblical. You refuse to see it.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6 NIV


In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

I haven't read the whole thread (too lazy), so everyone is free to disregard my comments. I'll only state the obvious: choice and grace are not mutually exclusive. I don't know of anybody who believes that they are. Our ability to choose comes to us as a gift of grace, as Scripture makes pretty plain.

 

Your quote about this from Romans was in reference to the Jews and Gentiles, not a person losing one's salvation.

As for your reference to John 15:

1 Corinthians 3 covers the whole thing pretty well. Emphasis mine.

 

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Romans 11:17-26 NIV

Please tell me what in the world being grafted into this tree is symbolizing if it is not salvation. If it is salvation what would being cut from the tree symbolize? If this is not to believers why does Paul go on to call them brothers?

Why did you not just show from the scripture I presented in John 15 how I had implied loss of salvation when it was "unbiblical?" This passage you have used to cover it is not talking about an apostate (a person who has not remained in Christ). It is talking about the rewards that those who have remained can expect based on their efforts for the kingdom.

Here is the reference again in John 15 that specifically speaks of the person that does not abide in Christ losing their salvation.

If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6 NIV

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Of course the quote from Romans has to with salvation, but it isn't about an individual's salvation, whether or not he/she can lose it. It's about the Jews and Gentiles. Salvation had come to the Gentiles, and God is able to graft the Jews back in, and so on.

At this point I think we're just talking past each other, so I don't see any good coming from continuing. Thanks.

 

I guess you are right about calling it a stalemate. I disagree with your interpretation. I believe that the letter was written to believers; hence Paul uses the word "brothers" to describe his audience. Therefore it has everything to do with individual salvation and loss as well as salvation for Israel and the Gentiles.

I appreciate your patience as I presented my arguments. Maybe we can mull over what each other has said and come back to the discussion later.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Tim, you are quite right about the Romans 11 passage referring to individual salvation. The problem is that modern versions make it difficult to distinguish 2nd person singular from plural. I'm not KJV-only by any means, but the KJV is helpful in this regard: "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:21-22. ("Thou" of course is the second person singular.)

 

Thanks Doubting Thomas! I am glad I am not the only one to see it that way.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Tim and Doubting Tom,

I agree with you!

Often, dispensationalists or pretribbers teaching on Romans chapter 11 deal with Jews and Gentiles in the timing.

Partially, I agree with them about Romans 11.

But, there are very clear of Romans chapter 11 teaches us, that if any individual person is disbelief, then shall be cut off from the branch or tree.

Same with John 15:1-6 speak of any person who do NOT abide in Christ shall be remove or cut off from the branch and cast into fire - hell.

Both John 15:1-6 and Romans chapter 11 are very clear speak of conditional salvation.

Romans 11 and John 15:1-6 should be discuss at the thread or topic - "Once saved always saved - Biblical?" But, I just post it on this anyway.

I will continue discuss on Romans 11 and John 15:1-6 at osas, also lot of things that I will discuss on it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!