ROMANS 8:5-8 DOES NOT SUPPORT TOTAL INABILITY

I'm very fimilar with the Greek, and the NIV is not an incorrect translation of the author's intent. The Noun form of the word "faith" which is "pistis" is used in this text. The verb form of this word is "pisteo" which is usually translated "believing." They carry the same meaning as the NIV translation renders. But, look at a few other translations of this text:

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so much for nothing--if in fact it was for nothing? 5 So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?

This is the clearest rendering. Held by Holman, NAS, &RSV.

But even if we accept your rendering "the hearing of faith?" You view is still unsupported. How does the Spirit come? "By the hearing of faith" or "the hearing with faith." The word "faith" or "pistis" is a third declension noun in the Genitive case which is possessive meaning that the one hearing would possess this faith, this is consistant with verse 14 which says that we receive the Spirit through faith, which we possess before we receive the Spirit!

In other words, the answer to Paul's question, "How did you recieve the Spirit?" Is through the means of faith. Before the Spirit indwells a person he must have faith!

No my point is not ridiculous it is scriptural!

The verse in Romans 10 says, "Then faith is from hearing, and the hearing through a word of Christ."

Faith comes by hearing the gospel message and the gospel message comes from the Word of Christ. Christ is the Word (as John teaches) and he gave us the gospel message which was being spread throughout the world.

What do you think that verse in Romans 10 means? How in the world do you twist it to fit your system?

 

The main problem with your analysis, Brother Bill, is that you are mixing up the continuous indwelling of the Holy Spirit after repentance and belief with the powerful one time working of the Holy Spirit in regeneration that precedes repentance and faith. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, this is different. You are saying the HS comes to the elect and regenerates them then leaves, then the people have faith, then the Spirit comes to indwell them? Wow, what comic book did you pull that out of?

You are going to have some biblical backing for this "Spirit comes and goes" view.

 

I'm sorry, I forgot you consider yourself to be the master Bible teacher in Christianity - the one man gang that is going to wipe Biblical Calvinism off of the face of God's green earth. </font>[/QUOTE]Why are you on this board smarty? Are you trying to wipe Arminianism off the face of the earth? There are a lot more of us so you have a long way to go.

Just because I'm addressing these points with clarity and passion does not mean I have unrealistic goals of destroying Calvinism. I'm just having fun and hoping to just make at least one of you Calvinist out their to stop and consider the error of your ways. I know of one who is seriously questioning his views because of some PM I have received, who knows maybe there will be more.

So your contradicting the scriptures that man will receive the HS through the means of faith. You are saying exactly what the other Calvinists are saying and that is the HS's indwelling precedes faith, that is not biblical! The Holy Spirit calls all to him and indwells those who believe what they hear.

Ken, there you go again misquoting and misappling my beleifs because you can't defeat my real arguments. I've never once said that a person saves himself by his own free will and power. And I've never said the the sinner has to make himself worthy of the HS. Those are your mischaracterizations of a straw man!

We are "enabled" by the call of the HS and the power of the Gospel. And faith is the means through which the Spirit is applied. Just read through Acts sometime and you will see that many people beleived in Christ long before the Spirit indwelled them, same as with the apostles themselves. This faith is a gift of God's grace, no doubt, it's just not limited to "the elect" as you assume.

Please deal with my arguments and not your preconcieved ideas about what you think I believe.

 

Your comments only reveal you ignorance of the original language. My quote of this passage was directly from the most accepted Greek text. Read this artical:

The Authorized Version of 1611 (King James Version) utilizes the Textus Receptus ("Received Text") as the basis for the Greek New Testament. The Textus Receptus is based upon various Greek texts as well as some influence by the Latin Vulgate. The earliest work being prepared by Desiderius Erasmus, revised by Robert Estienne (better known as Stephanus), and further revised by Theodore Beza. The text produced by each, is substantially the same, there are some variations between their various editions. The KJV utilizes the Stephanus 1550 edition.

Many of the newer more reliable translations are based upon Alexandrian texts. This site also provides the Greek text based upon such Alexandrian texts, noting however that the King James Version is not based upon such texts. The Alexandrian based text that is shown is the combined Westcott-Hort / Nestle-Aland 26th edition variants.

All three of my Greek text and both of my Greek-English Interlinears use the word "Kristos" not "Theo" and the word for "word" or "rhema" is declined as follows:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lexicon Results for rhema (Strong's 4487)
Greek for 4487
Pronunciation Guide
rhema {hray'-mah}
TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 4:69,505 from 4483
Part of Speech
n n
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
b) speech, discourse
1) what one has said
c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)
1) an utterance
2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative
a) concerning some occurrence
2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of
a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration
b) so far as it is a matter of command
c) a matter of dispute, case at law
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 70AV - word 56, saying 9, thing 3, no thing + 3756 1, not tr 1; 70

The translation "utterance" is not used by most reliable scholarly translations. The word "Rhema" connotes more of a spoken audiable word such as Christ's teachings. It is not used as any kind of Spiritual inabiling as you make it seem.

For example here is the same word "rhema" used in Mat 26:75   And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

English Strong's Greek (Root form) Tense
And   [2532]   kai  
Peter   [4074]   Petros  
remembered   [3415]   mnaomai
the word [4487]   rhema  
of Jesus, [2424]   Iesous

Notice Nick it doesn't say the "logos" of Christ. When you speak about things you obviously haven't studied you only reveal your ignorance on the subject.

 

How sad. I will pray that the Holy Spirit will prevent you from leading these people into the errors you teach. </font>[/QUOTE]This from a man who completely ignores clear passages of scripture that teach that hell is eternal and concludes that everyone will eventually be saved.

The Universalist is worried that I might lead someone to accept errors?

 

Like I stated the word faith is a Third Declention Noun in the Genitive case which mean it is possessive.

Therefore, the best rendering of this text is "by hearing with faith." This shows in intent of the authors use of the Genitive case. "hearing of Faith" Is not incorrect but it is not very clear in English. It makes it sound as if the faith is doing the hearing when in reality it's Paul audience that is doing the hearing with faith. I know you would rather leave this text where the intent is not as clearly discerned for your own theological purposes, but sorry it doesn't work that way.

What do you think "by hearing of Faith" means if it is not refering to the faith in the lives of those who hear?

Either way the Spirit doesn't come until after the hearing and the faith. So what is your point?

 

The spoken word of who? Christ who is the first to give the message [spoken word] of the gospel which is heard by the world through the apostles which produces faith in Christ to those that hear.

"Rom 10:17 So faith {comes} from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." NASB

Yet faith comes from listening to this message of good news--the Good News about Christ. NLT

Rom 10:17 So belief [cometh] of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. ASV

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ. RSV

 

And God said through the inspiration of Paul.

Act 28:28
Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will hear!"

The Gentiles will hear, because GOD SAYS SO!

(Don't you hate when your words come back to bite you )